Would you pay $11,000 or more for speakers if the cabinet was made in China??

Excellent choice. I have owned the Super Eclipse IIs for 15 years or so.

 

While speakers are about the most durable technology you can buy, it would give me pause to go 11k deep on something that would need to be shipped to china if something went wrong. I would also like that company to be very well established and dependable. Since I know of no company making speakers in China that matches that description, the answer would be "no". If say KEF started making some amazing speakers that cost half as much because they open a factory in China, I'd be a buyer.
We all have plenty of stuff that was made in China, no need to pretend anyone is above buying Chinese made products.

 

Safer in Beijing. "The mountains are high and the king is far away" when in Wenzhou

 

At least Well Tempered state right on their turntables who makes them, another company I know of doesn't.

 

Well Tissot is part of Swatch Group, as is the ETA SA movement company. ETA has diversified into additionally making custom movements for many of the different brands that Swatch group has brought under its corporate umbrella. All that on top of the in-house movements made at Breguet (very high-end and also part of Swatch Group). I think you're nosing into inappropriate analogies here, especially when considering that all sorts of materials and some component parts used in Swiss movements are in fact being sourced from a few Chinese makers that have the equipment, skills and supply chain to turn out really tiny, extremely close tolerance parts. The Swiss governing authority also specifies the percentages of various major watch parts that must be sourced and manufactured in Switzerland in order for Made in Switzerland or Swiss Made to be allowed on a case, on a bracelet or strap, on a movement plate, or on a dial. There are different rules for Made in Switzerland qualifications than for Swiss Made qualifications. Please don't get any deeper into this; it's an analogy that just doesn't work.

Your casual dismissal of marketing costs that KEF undertakes is perhaps inadvertently deceptive. Your comparison of the two companies is also seriously incomplete. Marketing spends for a company the size of KEF are a significant part of the company's budget year after year. Audio Note attends and demos at a tiny handful of audio shows each year, while KEF spends literally over a million pounds each year to participate in shows (travel costs, shipping costs, cost of goods produced for the shows, staffing for the shows, not to mention the significant fees to buy demo space at each show). The manufacturing quality of the KEF LS50 is superb - essentially flawless. AN doesn't spend a fraction of what KEF does on R&D, or a fraction of what KEF does on marketing, or a fraction of what KEF does on shows and exhibitions, and AN doesn't have a product line or manufacturing costs the size of KEF. Your comparison of retail prices between a product from KEF and one you prefer from AN is not founded in reality.

You like the AN product better? Great! Superb. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with where the KEF product was made. It reads more like you're China-bashing for no supportable reason. More important, despite your allusion to the contrary, nobody in this thread has suggested that any audio product in particular has to be manufactured in China in order to be competitively priced. The thousands and thousands and thousands of people who've purchased KEF LS50 speakers are a clear statement that award winning, widely respected and widely liked and enjoyed products can be designed and engineered in one place and manufactured in another. Like this is news? Because it's China? I think it's important for a lot of people to sit up and realize that their complaints about this are really, really late because highly successful tech manufacturing has been taking place in Chinese factories for years and years. Or were you just reminding people that the LS50 is made in China in order to try to denigrate the KEF brand? If so, you're barking up the wrong tree because the LS50 was always an excellent product and continues to be an excellent product, so good in fact that its manfacturing location has never been much of an issue at all.

 

No need to be so agitated! I didn't read his post a KEF-bashing or even China-bashing. It sounds like he just prefers the AN business model better. I will say this -- I'll bet you the LS50 would cost more to manufacture in England than it does in China. That doesn't mean its not good, because it is made in China, nor does it mean that the KEF speaker would be better-made in England.

 

Audio Note pretty much attends every show through North America and globally - they too have to rent out rooms. Indeed, they have often had two rooms at given shows. And the money the company pays for marketing is added to the per unit cost of the loudspeakers. Which may be why the KEF LS-50 is 50% more expensive than the AX Two and yields no better sound. Granted the aesthetics of the KEF are vastly better - nicer finish and cabinet design appearance. But hey Soundhounds in Victoria BC carries the KEF LS-50 and the Audio Note and Harbeth, Sonus Faber, B&W, Dynaudio, Paradigm. So one compare all of them in the same room with the same gear.

And I am not sure what your tirade is about. The KEF LS-50 is made in China - that is stated as a point of fact - I bought the things. The case being presented is largely about prestige. Having something made in molds in China versus something hand made in Denmark. People can then decide to place all their political viewpoints (slave labour, skirting pollution controls standards etc )in where they see fit - people are entitled to make those decisions for themselves if they deem them to have relevancy.

I was addressing the notion that people are forced to buy speakers from China or else pay a LOT more to have something virtually wholly made in Europe or America. The AX Two is that example of a speaker made in Denmark - costs considerably less to the consumer to buy and at the very very worst sounds just as good as the KEF. It depends as I find the KEF to have a few advantages but so does the AX Two. And lots of deep pockets can afford to buy some reviews (err advertising).

The reality is there are options for people resolved to feeling everything is made in China. Audio Note is one of them - I own it so I know it a bit better but I am sure they are not the only makers making reasonably affordable gear that makes most of the stuff from non Chinese sourced places. AN hand makes all their own transformers and many of the caps and the ones not made by them are from Japan (Black Gate Rubycon) but the actual transformers are made in house so is the wiring and soldering material as well as the case and volume pots and knobs and connectors. As for cost of materials - as mentioned before 15 ply Russian no void birch with 20+ finish options trumps a plastic modl in a Chinese plant or any and all mdf used in far more costly Chinese made stuff.

 

Does it say what brand of golf ball they use?

 

I would add that sound quality is subjective. And I would agree that KEF' s market is more mainstream that AN so they need an entirely different tactic and a 'need' to move units in large numbers.

AN and their old school Rolls Royce approach of non advertising "if you want the best you'll find us" works as a kind of prestige non advertising advertising.

Putting Americans out of work in droves will eventually have an impact though. You decrease the number of available buyers because good jobs get replaced by low paying ones. So I font blame people for wishing to choose options that keep those jobs in country. But hey I live in China so I can buy Chinese made goods with less moral cloud ☺

 

Since when is asking if there's any truth to something come to mean that someone is in support of or spreading it? This is not the first time I (or others reading this forum) have heard this rumor as it's obviously been mentioned before. This whole topic was about a company Aerial that wasn't exactly straight forward with where their speakers (or parts of their speakers) are made and I'm sure Aerial is not the only company doing it. So, I don't believe it's nonsense to ask such a question especially in this particular thread as it has to do with ideas within this topic (i.e. it's not like I'm thread crapping on someone's post about the new Harbeth speakers they just bought and wanted to share their excitement with everybody).

I'm not in support of anything, I simply asked if there was any truth to it because somebody in a successful speaker business (who I would hardly call foolish) told me that some of Harbeth's cabinets were made in China. But I didn't say I believed them ~ which is why I asked that question to this community as I wanted to know if anybody knows absolutely for sure that this is not the case.

I don't believe that just because somebody took a factory tour at Harbeth they would be privy to all of their internal business dealings either, nor would I think that would be something that their employees would go around shouting about if it were so ... it's not like Aerial's employees were.

Lastly, don't tell me what to do, if I want to ask a question within a topic that I think it's appropriate to ask ~ I will do so. Please feel free to ignore my post if they agitate you that much.

 

I think that some stuff is probably only made in China at this point so even companies who do their absolute best to make everything in America or Europe are still going to get to a point where they may have to source some things from China.

Further - what if a company genuinely finds a given part - say a tube - that sounds so much better than the other available options? You also have to put the quality first to be competitive. I think the main point of the thread was honesty. If you try to imply something untrue with weasel words then to me it's a lie. Just tell people where stuff is made.

This is happening with politics as well. If I find out that a certain company backs a certain issue I don't like I want to know about it and then I can make a choice as to whether I will support that company. Like Nordstrom. A certain bank supports a certain pipeline then I can opt to pull out of said bank and go to another bank. There are plenty of choices in the world. Made in China is but one to not support any given outfit. Personally my view is that the Chinese worker needs to eat too and while the job may pay horribly it is still better than no job and since China is way more capitalist than the US at least if the American is out of work he/she can still get some sort of socialized service - not so in China.

I dropped my bank because they were supporting the government trying to screw over teachers. Goodbye bank my money will go elsewhere. If I found out that a stereo company was acting irresponsibly then that is probably enough to make me move onto something else - there is more than one brand to keep me happy.

I have always heard Harbeth was hand made in England. And that every single speaker was individually tested. The Brit speakers do these little things that I like. AN tests every speaker, keeps a record of the measurements for each speaker and the wood finish so if a driver blows or you damage one of the cabinets you can get an exact duplicate. Harbeth looks to do the same by keeping track of everything about your loudspeaker. They like Audio Note probably also hand test all the parts that they buy to make sure the drivers for example meet spec exactly and shoo out the rest. ATC is another British company that also tests and measures every unit to ensure that pair matching of speakers is bang on to their spec. Three speakers makers in my general favorites list.

About Harbeth - Making yours

 

By your sort of illogic then, nothing anyone witnesses can positively be true? Nor is your suggestion implying someone might be privy to all of (Harbeth's) business dealings implicit in anything I wrote. The approach you take is basically that among a range of possibilities, you'd rather ignore eyewitnesses and facts and the actual cabinet work that domestic employees report they do at Harbeth, and instead believe that Harbeth might still be fooling all of us. That sort of approach denies facts and fosters rumors, which is unhelpful, spreads uncertainty and doubt for absolutely no reason, and does a disservice to the people at Harbeth for no reason.

The speaker company with which the OP had a problem never offered eyewitness views or tours of its manufacturing facility, and essentially mumbled its responses or lied outright. On the other hand, company owners that are proud of their operations and who are fully engaged with their products and their employees often take great pride in showing their operations to the magazines, bloggers, industry experts, and customers (or potential customers) interested in the company's products - companies like Harbeth and many, many, many others in the loudspeaker business.

The Aerial speaker company is an anomaly in an industry that is typically very open about parts sources, manufacturing origins, design origins and assembly origins. For anyone in this thread to subtley (perhaps inadvertently) tar Harbeth with a bit of the Aerial brush is unfair, unfounded and untruthful.

 

Probably a knock-off

 

Interesting thread. No, I would not buy these $11k speakers. I believe the main issue is one of disclosure: where, exactly, was the speaker made (can the label be trusted)? Fair question and I agree with others that these days (and particularly at that price point), one deserves full disclosure so that a fully informed decision can be made, factoring any other criteria the buyer may personally have set for him/herself. Insofar as my recent experience with Chinese goods, I had never given that issue any thought ever until I fairly recently bought two Marantza AVRs two years apart. One has been in the shop often (3 x so far, hdmi issues), the other zero. One made in Japan, the other made in China...and it is the newer one of the two that is a regular in the shop. Aberration? Perhaps but I've now learned to add one more criteria to my personal list of things I seek when looking for a particular piece in the future.

 

I could try and find out if you are interested. I'm sure a generic.

 

Frankly speaking, if you think an audio company is lying or covering up the facts as to where they source their parts, don't buy, simple as that. There are too many honest companies who want your business.

I try to buy from companies I trust. McIntosh for electronics and Opera for loudspeakers. Both make quality products and the distributors who I buy from I trust.

Time is too precious to be jerking around with dishonest people, trying to hold their feet to the fire.

 

I do know this, if I spent $11,000 on a pair of speakers and was told the speakers were made in the USA and later found out they were made in China, I would be angry and embarrassed for being a sucker.

 

What is the point of your post? You already know it's not the Chinese involvement I am complaining about, it's the lack of disclosure about their involvement, how many times must I reiterate that point? Let's change this scenario up a bit and I would be interested in your response. Ok, let's say you are considering some nice new Opera Loudspeakers, and these speakers have Made In Italy stamped right on the back of the loudspeaker, but then when you purchase them, you find out the cabinets were not made in Italy at all, they were made in China, and NOT made by a company that was supervised every day, closely by Opera Loudspeakers in Italy, but just a generic company that builds boxes for loudspeaker companies across the globe, would you still be 100% happy with your purchase, knowing there could have been poor adhesives used, or toxic adhesives used, and possibilities of veneers coming off five years down the road, or wood veneers that were not up to standards used in Italy? Would you not look back on your purchase and think, oh heck, I wished I had known these cabinets were made in China instead of Italy, it "might" have influenced my buying decision. And by the way, I looked at your Opera Loudspeakers, they are very beautiful speakers indeed, would love to hear them!

 

Well, I can tell I'm going to have to help you out here, with all this get over it and whatnot! If a product has Made In the USA stamped on it, we trusting sorts expect that to be the case. This entire post is about "educating" people to ask before they buy, because as you now see, just taking what is written on a product, does not seem to be enough, so now people will know to ask. It is my understanding that the Made In the USA has now been taken off this product, so obviously more people probably will ask before buying. I would note that there is nothing denoting any China involvement either, wonder why? So my friend, I will get over whatever when folks are 100% honest about where their products are made, and let me say, just because almost everything is globally sourced, that does not mean I have no choices, no I still have my paddle firmly in my hands, paddling down that stream!

 

I think that is General Tso's chicken! We can make it but with USA ingredients, oh my!

 

My friend, this is exactly what this post is all about, it helps us all wake up, I know I sure did, and I woke up before the purchase! Thanks for your input.

 

Number one: Opera doesn't outsource parts from China, so your scenario is not a valid one. My point is: are you going to waste previous time beating the Aerial/China thing to death or just move on to a company worthy of your trust?

 

What number one??? I did not say they did, I said, what if they did, let me say that again, what if they did, and they did not disclose it, that was my point, my scenario is valid, as I asked the question, what if they did. In regard to moving on, that is done already, I'm just trying to clean up any misunderstanding like you telling me my scenario is not valid, go back and read what I wrote, IF, IF, IF Opera outsourced to China, how would you feel if they did not disclose it. Hope that helps you understand better, so what is your answer? A simple hypothetical question, "what if" your speaker company claimed made in Italy and you found the entire cabinet was made in China, who you still move ahead with your purchase full steam? It appears I do need to beat on this old horse until you understand my question. So my question to you is, are you going to continue to watch me beat on this old dead horse or are you going to just answer my question? One of these days you will realize from the beginning this thread has always been about disclosure.

 

If the issue is dissemination of dishonest or deceptive information, I think everyone would agree that such practices should be sanctioned. But, what seems to be the focus here is specifically on whether disclosure of products or parts of Chinese origin should be made. I don't know what vital information this would offer a buyer. I see a lot of crappy gear made in the US as well as from other countries. All I can say from knowing that something is sourced from China is that manufacturing costs were probably lower than if the same thing were made in Switzerland or the UK or the US.

If an American company's product that is manufactured in China is poorly made or performs badly, that is the responsibility of the American company. The company made the arrangement for manufacturer, the company has a responsibility to inspect what it is selling, the company is responsible for overseeing how the product is made. There are plenty of companies that do these jobs well and their Chinese-made products are perfectly fine.

If someone has a social agenda having to do with country of origin, that is their business. But, to expect that certain information be provided on products for such purpose raises the issue of what is needed for "full disclosure." Yes, it does sound like one is on the side of angels when all they ask for is more complete information. But, what if I ask for the racial composition of the workforce that made the product? What about the religious affiliation of the owners of the company?

 

In fact I think they don't use a golf balls anymore.