Zappa or Beefheart - Who was the bigger genius?

they were both eccentric visionaries
full of Dada sensibilities
but Frank Zappa was an actual genius.

weren't his IQ scores genius level even?
I seem to recall a quote from his father
about it...

 

I also remember an old interview with
Frank on the Dick Cavet show where
Cavet tells Frank that Leonard Bernstein
thought he was a genius...

 

I have no idea exactly how we quantify genius in this context (and that's why I generally shy away from using the word altogether when discussing musical artists that I love). I gather that Don Van Vliet was something of a child prodigy when it came to painting and sculpture, starting when he was just three. Does this make him a genius? Plotzed if I know, but at their best, I think both Beefheart and Zappa touched on moments of all out visionary brilliance that few "rock" musicians do. I can think of a few other bands that achieve that level of magic for me as a unit, like Can and King Crimson, but that's more like collective genius. Brian Wilson at his best also achieves this level of brilliance for me on more of a pop songcraft/arranging/production level, as do the Fabulous ones. . .

 

They both have their moments but if you had a contest in which you must create an intrumental album that stirs up interest, a vocal album that captures interest, a single that captures interest, a film score that captures interest, a live show that captures interest and a libretto that captures interest......
Well, I'd think Zappa would have an edge of being more multi-faceted.

 

Im playing Apostrophe on CD reissue right now & enjoying it .....and yes it sounds better than my original vinyl.

 

One can see a parallel with Sun Ra and Beefheart and with Miles Davis and Frank Zappa.

And even Stravinsky and Zappa.

 

Zappa. Not even close and on all levels. Musicianship, arranging, composition and on and on. Not even remotely close.

 

Don by several lbs.

 

Zappa

 

Thanks to this thread, I've revisited both artists this evening: Disc one of The Dust Blows Forward (Rhino) comp followed by the tremendous live recordings of the 'Petit Wazoo' band, Imaginary Diseases. I have to say. . . both artists are extraordinary and distinctive, and I'm glad that they came into contact with each other as complimentary figures, twin freaks as it were. So I finally voted for the third option, even though I don't think it's really possible to quantify these things.

 

I got to go Zappa on this one.

 

Technically....
Beefheart -




Zappa -



Frank wins that one methinks but they both had the traits of genius IMO.

 

I've always seen Zappa as a skilled technician of music, and after a period of listening, quite tedious...like listening to a machine. Beefheart I saw as a artist who used music to express his creativity- some material brilliant, other material not so.

 

Well first of all, Don couldn't read or write music soooo......
It's kind of like having a guy who's an auto mechanic who doesn't know the first thing about cars.
Who would take their vehicle to THAT guy?

Frank knew what he was doing. Comparing the scores of the two of them....
Well, Zappa would win every time.
If we're talking about the "personal enjoyment factor" in listening to the music of both
than it all comes down to "preference" which doesn't prove anything.

I remember seeing a portrait of Frank in a book about Linda McCartney's
Photography where she was impressed by Zappa who she though had a definate
Vision and "knew what he was doing".

 

I'm going to claim a fair bit of ignorance on one Don Van Vliet (other than what I know from Bongo Fury and Hot Rats) and say that Zappa's name is one with which I would feel entirely comfortable including in a sentence with Beethoven, Bartok, Mingus, Monk, Ellington, and Coltrane. Maybe it's that I don't particularly care for what I've heard of Mr. Beefheart's works, such as I know them, but I'd like to think that this doesn't skew my opinion.

 

Statistical Density wins the day!

Not to take anything away from the Captain, who has provided more than a few inspired moments, I didn't hesitate to vote Frank. On the merit of prolific, iconoclastic and unique music composition. Notes and chords. Both displayed several other creative attributes, but on this music forum, I'll vote notes and chords.

Especially a buncha complicated ones.

 

Nope.

 

Frank for me

 

Creatures of the Mojave Desert in Southern Cali....

I'm originally from there myself - it takes one to know one.

 

Intellect vs Intuition. Frank technically was way more proficient but Don to his credit did not let this stop him. Admire both but would guess that the Captain will have the greater musical legacy. True musical adventurers that are missed.

 

Cynical about society, but completely sincere about his art. I think that people sometimes forget that Zappa - though he adopted a 'court jester' persona as a lyricist - made huge sacrifices of time and money to get some of his projects mounted. His intolerance of what he regarded as the unprofessionalism of the LSO was part of his absolute seriousness about getting his music performed as conceived. Moreover, there was nothing insincere about his respect for Varese or Nancarrow: invoking those names was hardly likely to improve his sales.

 

I love FZ & CB, but the above post is a perfect summing up of two very unique & complex characters.
I'm glad we had 'em both at the same time.

 

Don gets my vote - he really is out there stretching the limits of "music".
Zappa is way more assessable - Beefheart can clear a room to the untrained ear in no time...
Love Zappa's MOI stuff though - especially Burnt Weeny Sandwich.

 

I think that Zappa streched the limits of music in far more ways than CB.
Do you have to be a genius to clear the room with your music?

 

Which sort of implies that technical proficiency proves anything about quality or "genius", which to me it doesn't.