By older models, you mean the 1100, 2100, etc. series. or the 1000, 2000, etc. series. Also, do you own the 2200 now? If so, do you enjoy it more than the 1100, less, or about the same?
It's interesting to read the whole thread. Although lots of questions have been addressed from previous discussion I would appreciate if someone can provide some advice for my system upgrade. A year ago I switched the Parasound Halo to a AS-2100 (which actually a few hundreds cheaper), and immediately love the sounds much more on the Yamaha. By comparison it's more detailed, opened, spacious and 3D imaging. I am using a MM blue cartridge and KEF LS50 meta with the built-in phono stage. However, after some time I always found the sound a bit bright overall and thin in the mid range. I wish to have a fuller or muscular sound for instruments like horns. In this regard Parasound is definitely meatier. To tackle the brightness I have to leave the treble control at 9 or 8 o'clock most of the time. I think the main reason is the high load capacitance of the built-in phono stage (300-400 pF). Also I compared the built-in phono with Lounge audio LCR silver (a better match with 120 pF), which is a $500-ish external phono. Surprisingly there's no contest and the built-in phono is much better and there's no way I will switch to the external phono preamp. The LCR is forgettable by comparison, but does attenuate the brightness and is more balanced. I searched a lot comparison about the built-in phono (with Parasound zphono and other phono in $500 range) and saw contradictory experience. Some said it was disappointing but in my experience it easily beats the $500 LCR silver. Here's someone with similar feelings: Yamaha A-S 2100 phono section My question is what cartridge to pair with. I am upgrading to a SL1200 GR turntable plus a Rel t7x, and wish to have a fuller sound with less brightness and thinness than my current MM blue. I tend to use the built-in phono to save another $1000 or more, because if I buy another external phono I would try a Graham Slee Reflex M or anything better. If go with MM cart, I would not consider MM blonde/black with the experience of MM blue. I would guess the AT cart will sound even brighter. Not sure if Nagaoka is sensitive to capacitance. MP200 is on the warm side and possibly can compensate the brightness but not fine line. MP-500 seems to have less Nagaoka sound signature and maybe not cost effective. The only cart with high capacitance maybe a Shure but I am not familiar with the brand. If go with LOMC cart, with Yamaha's low load impedance (50 ohms) and low overload, Dynavector 20x2L, Ortofon Quintet Bronze looks good in paper. Other carts like HANA or AT-ART9 or AT-OC9XSL or OC9/III has suggested load impedance larger than 100 ohms. Anyone tried these or compare them? I also heard using the MM phono plus a SUT is better than the MC phono stage. If go with HOMC cart and MM phono stage, what matching specs matters, capacitance or impedance? And any cartridge that I would suit the built-in phono that I missed? So what would be the best move, try an external phono preamp and have much wider selections of cartridge or stick with built-in phono with any recommended cartridges? Try to keep the budget under $1000, and less cost is always better.
I would consider the AT-VM95ML. I have one on a GR through theA-S1100 which shares the same phono pre as the A-S2100 and it’s my go to cart. It’s not bright. It sounds just right. It’s also affordable and I plan to try the SH at some point. I even picked up the C for the few polystyrene 45s and for fun. It’s just useful to have a VM and it just might be what you are looking for. Next I would consider the MP-200. It‘s elliptical but I get no IGD. It sounds warm and lively but it is more expensive. I also have a KAB ProS40. Some consider it better than the black. It has the most resolution of the three but it will pick up everything and being an Ortofon it is the closest to the blue in character. I also have a blue on a Pro-Ject 1XPression Carbon Classic. I‘d like to try a Grado Platinum 3 on the GR, but you have to send them in to get re-tipped when they wear out. One other thing to consider is the mastering of what you are listening to, your speakers, and their placement. Also picking up a sub to compliment them would be something to consider. I have Harbeth P3ESRs and Klipsch Heresy IIIs. They sound extremely different. Harbeth‘s are like being in the studio with the band, while Heresys are like being outdoors at a venue. The Heresys sound more bright. I characterize the A-S1100 as sounding natural and clean, but never harsh or bright. It might be the clean neutrality of it that you need to adjust to.
The Harbeth and Klipsch would be a dream combo for me to listen different types of music. I am hesitant because of the 100 to 200 pF Recommended Load Capacitance of AT cartridge. The MM blue is already sound too bright to me, don't know if it's my personal preference or room response. For the price of MP-200 I would expect a finer stylus. Again, what makes me concerned is the high load capacitance of the amp, and wish to attenuate the brightness of current sound. I heard the MC phono stage is not as good as the MM, and read some comments here:Tell me about switching from MM to MC carts Maybe try a LOMC with SUP, or MM that could sound warmer. Given the 35dB gain and around 350pF capacitance, 50 ohms impedance, 2mV overload margin, is there any cartridge that could sound less bright and more body than the MM blue?
If using MC cart with MM stage and step-up transformer, what specs should look for to match the cartridge and amp?
A bit strange, cause the 2200 has lower noise floor than the 1100, so the 2200 should be more «detailed». But I avoid using the term «detailed», cause it makes some confusion. Some folks hear more sparkling «details» after getting more high frequency noise in their systems. But noise always hide «details» and low level information in music. I was amazed how much more low level information I heard through my A-S3200 compared to my NAD M3 that has pretty good specs. Many CD’s that I’ve played for 30 years or more, I could hear analog tape artefacts that I never recognized before, like tape drop-outs for a fraction of a second, or som trembling on the tape going on for seconds. CD’s that I’ve played hundred of times. It was a WOW for me. Should we say more «details» to be heard, or more low level information?
It doesn’t though, according to the Polish magazine measurements. None is these amps meet the published A-weighted noise-floor spec, though that’s very typical throughout the industry. I can only go by recollection, but the 2200 compared to my AHB2 definitely seemed more “veiled” than what I recall of the 1100 vs the AHB2.
I think I've already said this above someplace, but my best move would be the AT-OC9XML cartridge (around $500) paired with a good SUT (maybe the Raphaelite DT1.1 for around $280, or DIY Lundahl LL1931/1933 for around $400 - see What's Your Favorite Under $1000 Step Up Transformer (SUT)? ), into the Yamaha MM stage for now, but with the future intent of kkeping the cartridge and SUT, and switching to a nice, no feedback, discrete MM phono stage with a really big overload margin (something like the made in USA Darlington Labs MP-7 if going for new). The AT-OC9XML (output 0.4mV @ 5cm/sec) with Raphaelite DT1.1 SUT (ratio 1:13 measured) would be a good match to the Yamaha, giving you around 5mV to the MM input, so you would have a full 20dB overload margin, and around 280 ohm reflected resistance load. But that said, there is at least one person in this thread using the Yamaha MC phono stage (A-S2100) with the AT-ART9, and loving it. Doesn't seem like a good match based on specs, hardly any overload margin, but probably fine for most records.
Out of curiosity, have you tried listening to any digital through the amp? If so, how does it compare? That would tell you if what you are experiencing is the amp/speaker combo or the cart.
The Slee reflex M is excellent IMO, I used it with a clear audio virtuoso. pf is 100 but much older models had a higher pf I understand. I also tried the virtuoso direct into the 2200 and again sounded good, that cart is now a spare as near end of life and the Slee amp was sold. Specs say the virtuoso should not work well but sounded good to me, I'll likely get an ML stylus for it at some point. I tried an Ortofon Quintet Blue MC, hated it if I'm honest, maybe should have given it time to settle in but soundstage was very poor. I am currently running among iron Soundsmith Otello, sounds great. I think loading is supposed to affect HOMC's but capacitance should not be an issue. Another one I like is the Denon DL110.
Unfortunately I don't know myself. I still don't quite understand the finer details of load capacitance and the like. I just know different frequencies are affected by it. The higher price of the MP-200 has to do with the boron cantilever. Apparently it makes a difference. This guy's video on the MP-200 sold me on one: Steve Guttenburg sold me on the Grado Platinum 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76h9eqoyfDk The P3ESR and Heresy III are both known for their midrange so that might be why I'm not experiencing anything lacking there. They are amazing. I'd love to step up but unfortunately I don't have the space. I'm about 9' from them with arch ceilings so perhaps I don't really need to.
I've seen people find their nagaoka sounding fine even if ran into the 300pf range - I personally run in the 100-200pf range and I love how the mp200 sounds (i used mp150 body and mp200 stylus) but the main issue there is that it doesn't have a fine tip, while it tracks fine for most of each side but if you have albums that use every inch on each side with some heavy hitters near the inner grooves then it's not as good. I start testing this mp150 body +mp500 stylus combo these past 2 days - sounds pretty good so far, it's almost like mp200 and vm95ml had a child together - I switch between either, perhaps no need anymore with this combo.
Anyone A/B or go from a 2200 to a 3200? If so, can you please describe the SQ differences heard. Wondering if the 3200 brings a bit more warmth to the SQ? Thanks
I meant the X100 series models measured better than the newest series. Higher dynamic range and power. I had the 2200 for a few days. It was a pre-owned unit so I assume it was broke-in. At least, it didn’t have the slight shrillness my 1100 had when it was brand new. The 2200 was a good bit more veiled than what I remember of my departed 1100, and likely had a higher noise floor, judging by the hiss coming out of my speakers. Overall, the 2200 was a fatter, warmer sound, but too warm if anything. I currently have the Hegel H190 in house and prefer it quite a bit to the 2200 I had a couple weeks ago, though I have doubts that I would prefer it to the 1100. Hard to say of course since I don’t have them all here simultaneously. One thing for sure is the Hegel actually makes the Yamahas sound weak by comparison. The Yamahas have better bass extension but in comparison to the Hegel, you can tell they are missing that effortless headroom.
Been reading up on the 1200,2200 and 3200 and in the process have come across critic reviews, user feedback on the 801. It would seem that many describe the 801 as having a warmer tonality than the 1200 series models? That the 1200 and up are tuned more "lit" in the mid, higher frequencies? This aside, it is clear that Phono section and other components in the 1200 series are better. I enjoy a more vintage, lush sound and it seems counter-intuitive that the lower-end 801 may provide more of this? Would appreciate any thoughts, especially from those who started with an 801... Thanks
Agreed, read this everywhere. Hoping to get a better sense of the tonal character of the 801 vs 1200 series.
@nyrjoe Having owned a 501 and 2100, I think it's fair comment that both of these amps will not give you the warm and lush character you're after. They are resolutely clean and detailed performers both. Sounds like tubes might be what you're after - there are plenty of excellent value propositions from China these days.
That's interesting. The A-S1100 manual has the following Signal to Noise ratios: Phono MM 90 dB Phono MC 83 dB CD, etc. 100 dB The A-S2200 has: Phono MM 96 dB Phono MC 90 dB CD (or similar) 110 dB BAL 114 dB So you would expect the A-S2200 to be quieter. That said I can turn the volume knob to max on my A-S1100 for digital and I hear zero hiss. For phono it's dependent on the turntable.
On my 3200 I must turn the volume knob up to 12 o’clock to hear a very slight hiss, if I hold my ears close to the tweeter.
My first Yamaha amp was an 801 and I still have/ love it. I use a 3200 as my sweet spot supplier and I'd take the 3200 everyday of the week if I had to choose between the two. There's a holographic element to the 3200 the 801 can't provide. Without getting too prose-oriented I'd say the 3200 comes across w/ greater full-spectrum fidelity, top to bottom, while the 801 offers excellent definition and clarity within more confined parameters. Not necessarily a 4k vs. greyscale picture but something along those lines. The 3200 is vivid and lush where the 801 is precise and less emotionally engaging. WRT "many describe the 801 as having a warmer tonality than the 1200 series models", I disagree. In my house the 801 seems paler and cooler compared to the 3200. If you like lush/ vintage sound I'd suggest you audition one of the higher end Yamaha's, a nicely restored Sansui, or perhaps a Marantz.
I recently spent a week listening with my Sansui 9090 after owning A-S3000 for around 60 days. At the end of the week I was sorely missing the precision, accuracy, detail, and what @aunitedlemon refers to as holographic sound. What a contrast between the two. I’m not sure I could ever go back to the 9090 now. Also, I hear not a single whisper through my ATC with the dial @ 100%.
