Amazon Music HD - Weakest Link my Streamer?

This would be a HUGE help!

You actually need to use the Alexa app not the Amazon Music App, I'll post instructions here. They are within the HEOS app, see below link with a screenshot.

Amazon Photo

You have no idea how helpful this would be.

 

Sorry, but Alexa is a bridge too far for me. I refuse to allow Alexa into my house (I'm not into blatant big brother type spyware).

So while the Alexa integration may be very cool, I'll have to be satisfied with using the Heos app.

 

It's just an app on your phone you don't actually need an Alexa device, you can delete it after the test. All you would need to do is follow those instructions click on the Alexa button and ask it to play any song.

 

I'll think about it... But uninstalls often leave traces behind, and Alexa is not something that I want. Ever.

 

Big brother is watching......I mean listening!!!!!

I would even to willing Venmo you a cup of coffee or a beer on me if it helps.

I'm curious what kind of model HEOS receiver do you have a Marantz? I looked up the DAC you mentioned is >$4k!

 

I know that younger generations don't value their privacy. But I grew-up in a different era.

In my main system I have a Marantz ND8006 which I use feed to my DS DAC. I also have multiple Heos links which I use around the house as my primary sources for (tiny) systems in the living room, the family room, and bedroom and garage. I can tune these to anything I want, and pipe whatever I want to listen-to around the house.

The Links and the ND8006 are incredibly versatile and with these I can play almost any source in any room with this setup.

 

I have 6 Echos and will be on an upgrade path for foreseeable future. Indispensable now for us. Echos are no different than any smart phone

 

So I wanted to post an update here to fill everyone in with my journey so far:

Marantz never got back to me about about the bit quality when using the amazon app or Alexa. This was very convenient way to play music direct to the receiver; however, there was no way to confirm the streaming quality. The HEOS app was the only way I could 100% play Amazon Music bit perfect and to be honest the app was serviceable but lacked polish. Its a nice looking unit and I really liked the display but I felt like for the money I could do better.

As a result I decided to return it. With an integrated I was paying for stuff I would never use like the built in phono and DAC. I like the idea of separates because it allows me to upgrade individual components rather than the entire receiver. I could add a headphone amp in the future, upgrade my phono pre amp etc.

I have a used Parsound A23 power amp coming tomorrow and I plan on getting a Freya+ for a preamp. For streaming I'm going to give the Bluesound Node 2i a shot.

I have a new post I started here discussing budget integrated amps versus separates

Separates vs. Integrated (RR2160 or Used Parsound HINTO) - Budget Edition

 

Tim, I finally got the Node 2i setup and wanted to give you an update. The app is definitely an improvement over the HEOS one and I can confirm you can access your Amazon music playlists through the BluOS app.

Currently there is no way to display the exact bitrate but there is an icon when a song is being played which displays if it's CD quality (16 bit) versus HR quality (32 bit). Per Bluesound the 3rd party API provided by Amazon is rather limited, but Amazon Music will automatically play the highest available quality of the song.

I can't comment on the quality of the sound as I'm still without my preamp, but I may hookup my old Denon receiver temporarily if I end up setting up my speaker stands before the preamp comes which is late June.

PS: Marantz still never replied to my question from weeks ago. Don't really care anymore as I returned the integrated receiver but disappointing none the less.

 

I've had mine for about two weeks and I can't begin to tell you the leap in sound quality it provides.

Huge soundstage and crisp definition not just using Amazon but internet radio as well.

Yeah, the app could be better. But the unit itself does an amazing job.

 

Greetings. I have been researching this for some time, so far the best comments I have found are from Tim S and TarnishedEars here (after looking at manufacturer info, Amazon, forums, all kinds of places). This also tells you that the problem is still unresolved.

Firstly, thank you both. Second, posting a follow up and some more details. To set the stage:

• I have a Cambridge Audio 851N streaming DAC, hooked up to a Cambridge Audio 851A amp, to ATC SM40 speakers.
• I have been trying different source components to stream Amazon HD/UHD:
  • Android phone running Amazon Music app to ChromeCast Audio ("casting", Tim!) hooked to 851N via Optical/TOSLINK
  • Mac running Amazon Music app, over WiFi, directly to the 851N, via the DAC's built-in Apple Airplay
  • Mac running Amazon Music app, over USB cable, to DAC's USB Audio Type B (192kHz)
• I am staying away from subjective measure: How it "sounds" depends on too many other factors. This is specifically about bit-perfect delivery of the stream to DAC.

So far, both ChromeCast (again, not analog, but optical) seem to deliver 16bit/44kHz to the DAC, regardless of the song being HD/UHD. With USB Audio I have had better luck, but as discussed in another post Streaming Amazon HD and Ultra HD with Computer, again with best comments by Tim, there is no way to bypass the OS audio stack and we don't really know what that does to the stream. At the very least, it will reclock and resample -- and the worst part of it is that it does not dynamically adjust to the bitrate of the stream: If I set it up for HD (16/44), UHD will be downsampled. If I set it up for UHD (24/192), HD will be upsampled.

For those who wonder -- upsampling by the computer is not necessarily good, the generic software may introduce additional jitter. In my DAC I do have a pair of high powered DAC circuits (independently for left and right) which upsample to (24/384) for me. I want the stream to arrive at my DAC untouched. So, here comes the list of questions:

• Has anybody tried Node 2i or N100, verifying the bitrates for Amazon? Notice that if we're connecting to an external DAC, as in my case, we are bypassing the internal DAC of the Bluesound unit: It does not matter which one has a better sound. It's just a transport, and the sole purpose of it is to receive and forward the Amazon stream at the highest quality without messing with it.
• What is the output bitrate/frequency of Node 2i, N100, and Denon HEOS Link? People usually talk about input, or the internal DAC. Many folks do not realize that the output quality is different, it's a different circuit. So if your device advertises 24/192 (as HEOS Link does), but the TOSLINK or Coax output is limited to 16/44, even if it can receivie Amazon UHD properly at 24/192, upon sending it to the DAC it will downsample it. I could not find this information for HEOS Link.

Meanwhile, I am trying to find and buy a used N100 so that without spending a fortune "just to test" I can have a first-hand experience and report back.

Thanks!

 

Ah... I meant to say "both ChromeCast... and Airplay seem to delivery 16/44 to the DAC"

 

FOUND IT-!

...it's the belief that a major corporation could come up with a solution that would both satisfy easier-to-please customers, and your own more-specific sound quality needs. There's your weakest link.

I'll bill ya...

 

I'd definitely be interested in finding out what the DAC tells you with a N100. You could always get a Node 2i from amazon and return it if you aren't satified.

I have a Node 2i and have been very pleased with it but I have no way of verifying the bit rate other than the HR and CD icons on the BlueSound app. I don't have a external DAC to verify.

Wouldn't you still be limited by the toslink output of the Node or N100?

I don't believe there are limits with analog except that of the BlueSound's Node 2i's DAC which is 32bit/192kHz so it can handle Ultra HD at 24/192. The N100 is 24/192 so its DAC can also handle Ultra HD

 

I have no experience with the Node, so I can't help you with that. However, I can at least answer your questions about the Heos Links. Assuming that you have a Series 2 Link, then it outputs whatever it has as input. That means, if it CD res from Amazon HD, you get CD res out. If it is 24/192 from Amazon, again that is exactly what you get.

Note that the original links are limited to 24/44.1 resolution. So if you care about high res, then the series 2 units are a must.

Also, just because you see 16/44.1 coming from a stream out of your chrome-cast device in no way implies that this stream is necessarily CD quality. This is because a stream which is compressed using lossy codec (such as MP3) will still decode to 16/44.1 PCM, even despite the loss in fidelity.

 

Thanks for the details on Heos and pointing out series 1 vs 2. Reagrding ChromeCast 16/44 output, you are absolutely correct. I should have been more clear: Regardless of the actual source stream, ChromeCast sends a 16-bit/44.1kHz PCM to the DAC. That has nothing to do with the source quality. AirPlay seems to be the same.

 

I think the N100 is a little hard to come by now. I try to keep track of devices that are (for me) specific to amazon uhd. Thanks for your kind words!

 

For completeness, based on TarnishedEar's comment above I tried to figure out how to tell between Link Series 1 vs 2. They turn out to look pretty much alike (aside from a shade of color, but I can't tell if that's just from the photo lighting or the color of front-top is actually darker on Series 1). So, here you go: Looking at the back, I have marked where the difference is: On Series 2 you'll see a little bluetooth symbol (Series 1 does not have bluetooth), otherwise you can see how similar the two are:

[IMG 'Denon Heos Link.jpg ']

And here is the descriptions on Crutchflield. It looks like generally Series 1 does not support over 44.1kHz:

• Series 2 (newer, supporting 192kHz)
• Series 1

 

They do look almost identical. However these are the differences to look for:
Series 1 has a shiny black face, and Series 2 has a gray face.
Series 2 has an additional tiny button on the back for Blue Tooth connections.
Series 2 also says "HS2" on the bottom label. But you cannot trust ebay listings which say "HS2" unless you are able to verify this for yourself since many people just copy and paste other people's descriptions while not having a clue what the "HS2" means.

 

Did you decide against getting or testing a Node 2i or N100? I'm very interested in what you DAC shows you.

 

I have a Node 2i and have confirmed that the digital output from it to my Cambridge Audio DAC does in fact change with each song played to match the bitrate of the track as listed in the Amazon HD service. By contrast, if I run the Amazon HD App on my iPhone and connect via USB camera adapter to this same DAC the DAC stays fixed at 192kbps regardless of the bitrate of the track playing.

So yes, the Node 2i appears to be providing bit perfect Amazon HD to external DACs, and if the BluOs app didn't suck so bad I would keep it.

Still looking for a solution. Hopefully Amazon will learn how to play with bit perfect or audirvana in the future, or Blue Sound will build a better app.

 

Decided to move to Qobuz for now while waiting for Amazon to figure this out.

 

Thank you for confirming this!

I agree the app leaves something to be desired for sure. Does AirPlay limit the quality? I think that’s limited to 16 bits could u test it for us?

The other option is Alexa integration but that’s annoying too u have to say Alexa ask blue sound to xxxxx. I think this way is bit perfect because it’s playing through the blue sound app.

Thanks in advance!

 

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