Amplifier suggestions for Harbeth?

From your posts, sounds as if the Harbeths were a real eye opener for you.
Amps wont quite be the same. Buy one that you can get repaired if necessary.
Buy one that you can resell without issue. Some favs, Leben, LFD(neither fall into my recommended catagory).
Pre-owned Luxman, Naim,would be top choices.

 

So far, these guys are the only ones I know of. Good outfit, ordered my Target stands from them.
http://www.everestaudio.com/products/Sonneteer-Alabaster-integrated-amplifier-ssi.htm

 

BrioR @ 50 wpc, to Alabaster @ 55 wpc. Perhaps a sideways move...
Move up to an amp with 100 wpc or more. You'll be future-proofed if indeed you decide to get larger Harbeths down the road.

 

I hear you, but I want to give them a listen just on ArtK's recommendation alone, especially since he considers the Sonneteer a significant step up from the Brio-R, and he ran Harbeth P3ESRs with both amps.

 

Oh yeah, you should check it out, you may love it. I have experience with neither of those amps, so I can't comment on them other than looking at the specs.
With Compact 7s, I've so far noticed the best sound when moving up to 120 wpc solid state. Previously used 50 wpc tube, and then 40 wpc solid state...
They sounded great with the other amps, but when the speakers have more power at their disposal the music/sound does have a nice "effortless" quality,
especially when the volume gets turned up.

PS - the "Tone Poems" series of cds by David Grisman et al. are great recordings for hearing Harbeth speakers really shine.

 

Yeah, I think you're probably right as far as more power goes.
But I'm realizing that finding a great solid state/tube integrated, in the 100W range, with a great phono stage, is proving difficult in the $2,000 ~ $4,000 range.
Less money is obviously better.
I know, why does it have to be integrated? It doesn't in the strictest sense, but I really like the idea of a one-box solution for less than $2,000 (ideally).
Lots to choose from in the 50W or less market, but the 100W point seems to be rather scarce.
I haven't heard the Compact 7, but it's supposed to be a helluva speaker; if it sounds anything like the P3ESR or M40.1.
Thanks Snashforce.
–R

 

I just realized the Campion would put 44W into the P3s as they are 6 ohms (33W into 8 ohms, 60W into 4 ohms)... that's an added bonus.
To me, that explains why many compare it to the Nait 5i and XS for that matter. Plus it's got a (highly-regarded) phono stage!

 

Ha! ... Current enjoyment is ...

... Wait for it ...

Brio-R into P3ESRs.

 

Ask Alan Shaw
He thinks all good ones ,under the correct parameters,sound the same.

 

If there is a Hegel dealer near you, that's a good one to check out.

 

Sugden A21 - class A integrated

 

I'm using a Sonneteer Campion with Compact 7's.

 

I'm using cj GAT/pr350 combo with 40.1 and it's amazing. Going from MC402 to pr350 was a HUGE improvement in weight 3D dimensionality and soundstage. I couldn't believe it. I had thought the MC was phenom.

 

I am using the Devialet D200 into the 30.1 model (with the SAM turned on) and I am pretty happy. Strike that, very happy.

 

I ended up with the Audio Note UK Oto Line SE into Harbeth M30.1s... still love the P3ESRs though.

 

Yes he does. Maybe he has yet to try the LFD?
Harbeth speakers seem to work well with any amp, even low power tube gear sounds fantastic at low level listening.

I have to say, until I matched the Harbeths I have [30.1's] with the LFD I didn't know just what I was missing.

 

The P3ESR has 83.5db sensitivity. If it was my money, I'd want good power and plenty of it to control that speaker, good high current and a good damping factor.

 

Forget that. Just saw your last update! Hope you're having fun with the new gear!

 

I'm considering 30.1's so I'm curious to understand Alan Shaw's amp theory. If all properly operating amps sound the same, why would he say this:

" Harbeth speakers will work with any normal grade, audiophile or regular grade amplifier that is performing within its original specification. They will work better with a really good amp, but they will work well with even a modest hi-fi receiver-amplifier."

Why the discrepancy? If they all sound the same, why would Harbeth's "work better" with a really good amp? What am I missing?

 

if your potential customer base owns a wide variety of amplifiers, it would be a good idea to say that your speakers "work" with all types of amplifiers...which is probably both accurate and smart business.

 

Oh I totally get it from a marketing perspective, and I get that they'll "work", but hasn't he also stated that all properly working amps sound the same? So much so that no one could tell the difference between any two amps assuming volume was properly matched?

 

I tend to prefer lower powered gear, particularly tube gear, over higher powered stuff. To me, some of the worse sound I've heard comes from high-powered tube gear using many pentode or tetrode tubes in parallel (OTL designs are the exception). I have heard the P3ESR and the 30.1 work well with the small Italian Synthesis tube amps and with the Bel Canto solid state amps. One of the better combinations I've heard with Harbeth speakers was the French Lavardin solid state integrated amp. These are somewhat low-powered (around 50 watts) but they are not cheap. Perhaps a used one can be found.

 

Two things about Harbeth. 1. In my view a bright amp will sound fatiguing with them as they are neutral and open sounding when heard properly. 2. Alan Shaw is best ignored in saying all amps will be right. In my experience he never manages to do a decent dem of his own product at shows and I do wonder if he knows their all round capabilities given his bias toward Classical music (exclusively?). Going on enthusiastic owners recs and dealers plus what I have heard - use 'Something Solid' stands and not the ones Harbeth are using at shows recently and amps including Alberry, Croft, Rega, Sonneteer, Unico and LFD. I would defo not recommend Naim or Bryston.

 

I don't think he knows what to say anymore, and that quote pretty much seems to reflect that.
People are realizing that while Shaw is a brilliant speaker designer, he might not be an authority on amplifiers.
I demoed Lavrdin, Sugden, Rega, Peachtree, Sonneteer, Naim, etc. And after a long amplifier journey, I went with Audio Note/Harbeth.
Unconventional? Perhaps.
I can tell you that it was not a popular choice over on the Harbeth User Group, where Shaw et al. roundly sniggered and guffawed and did their best to shut me up.
All I can say is I went with what sounded the very best to my ears. YMMV.

 

I feel Alan is constantly being misquoted, misrepresented and taken out of context here on this forum. I can see why because what he says is basically the antithesis of the majority opinion of the forum. But if you are going to refer to someone who has an opposing view shouldn't you at least be intellectually honest and not constantly misquote and attribute things to him that he never said. Otherwise, I call into question your motives, integrity and honesty.

For what it's worth these were his final words on amplifier comparisons. As far as I can tell he has put this issue to bed.


1) Both amplifiers must be delivering exactly the same voltage, the same music loudness at the speakers. Determining that to the necessary accuracy mandates test equipment.
2) Obviously, both amplifiers must be working within their linear range. That means that the 'bigger' more powerful (therefor louder) amplifier must be turned down to be used in the same power range that is common to it and the lesser powered amplifier. Determining that to the necessary accuracy mandates test equipment.

Then a meaningful comparison can be made. And previous researchers have all reported that when comparisons are made between even vastly different amplifiers in price, cosmetics and power terms, providing that they are compared under conditions 1 and 2, the similarity of circuit function seems to manifest itself as virtually or actually indistinguishable sonics. However, if condition 1 or 2 are not precisely fulfilled, then a fair comparison is not possible, and the nature of human hearing then introduces a preference bias merely based on a dissimilarity in loudness at the ear.


Every other aspect of this subject has been discussed here at great length, and now we are back to the position reported by researchers some 40+ years ago. There is not really anything to add, except prove it yourself, which needs an investment of perhaps around $200, and a CD with some spot test tones, and a free evening or two. I may caution you in advance though based on my own critical evaluation and good quality test equipment: if you repeat the comparisons under controlled conditions, you are not likely to find yourself in disagreement with previous researchers, until, that is, you fail to meet preconditions 1 and or 2. In which case, you will hear substantial differences and you will have a preference.

I have done this, anyone else? I am interested to hear from people that have done some meaningful comparisons.