Anyone Else Not Like Theatrical Superman 2?

I think Superman II would've been better if Donner had been allowed to finish it. Overall I prefer the Lester Superman II now and I don't think it's just because I watched it so many times growing up that I memorized it. I think it's one of the best paced and edited films I've ever seen. It has a flow and a momentum that just does not quit as you're watching it. I think my main problem with the Donner cut is just the technical execution of it. You have dialogue that wasn't looped so the actors don't sound clear or as they did in both theatrical movies. The score was changed so the Superman theme when Superman finally defeats Zod is much better in the theatrical cut. I like the Eiffel Tower action scene so I don't like seeing that dropped.

However the Donner cut has lots of terrific scenes. I do think the scene of Lois jumping out of the Planet and shooting Clark were much better ways to do the identity reveal than the waterfall jump and pink bear tripping. Some of the dialogue near the end with Lois is great too, where she uses the "up, up and away" line. At the same time, Reeve and Kidder had great chemistry in most of the Lester scenes too that the Donner cut loses.

I think we NEED the repowering scene. Just glossing over that in the theatrical is terrible. We need to know that Clark lost his connection to his parents by repowering. But the scene where it happens is a little underwhelming in the execution. I don't know if that's from reconstruction problems or it just wasn't conceived that well in the beginning. The turning back time ending is great as a deleted scene but not usable in the story, and Donner knew it wouldn't be after Superman 1 was finished.

I was really disappointed with Michael Thau's editing of the White House attack in the Donner cut. One of the TV cuts has that scene extended and perfectly edited with all the tricks and gags Donner shot, some of which Thau cut out. Thau's edit of that scene didn't flow well. I would bet the extended TV version of that scene was an edit done by Stuart Baird. It's just done too well. I don't know if it's ever been confirmed but I would guess Stuart Baird finished editing some of the Superman II scenes Donner shot before production was halted.

 

Ho ho!

 

The worst part of Donner’s cut is Clark going back to get even with the bully at the diner after he turned back time. Come to think of it, it’s out of character for Superman to seek revenge under any circumstance.

 

I was just about to report him for that horrendous pun, actually!

 

I've always liked the original release, though it is troubled with the campy slapstick stuff, and the inexcusable missing explanation for how his powers came back.

But as much as I like Donner and deeply love the first film, The Donner Cut is just an odd curiosity to me that at times makes no sense. At best, to me it comes off as a fan assemblage - the inclusion of audition footage and the same literal ending as the first film make it impossible to consider it as anything real. It would have been far preferable if they had cut the campy Lester stuff, used as much Donner footage that made sense, but then kept everything else necessary (including the bizarre memory-wipe kiss) so that it would still work as an actual sequel, just slightly improved in places.

 

Right. A big problem with Donner’s is it can’t coexist with the first movie. And that is unacceptable.

 

Just because I don't have any place more convenient to put it right now (and the potential for a new thread on it going awry and getting gorted, advises me against it):

Guess who's getting a shot at writing a new Superman film for Warner:

Ta-Nihisi Coates

 

Watched Donner version last night. Another problem is the “freshly squeezed” joke. He says it at Niagara Falls but the set up in the office is gone.

 

Doesn't he say it later in the Fotress of Solitude? So it still kinda works. It really isn't important to discover why Lois likes freshly squeezed oranges. It's just a funny little quirk.

 

He might. It was a more obvious gag in the Lester version I guess. I kind of got tired during the last hour.

 

The problem with the Donner cut is it can not coexist with the first movie. I wish there was a version of the theatrical version but with more Brando and the Super kiss ending and all that.
And in NO movie should Clark go get revenge on the bully at the diner. That is way too out of character and petty.

 

I always felt disappointed by Superman II -- it had a hard time living up to the potential of the first film.

Not exactly. Mario Puzo wrote the novel of The Godfather, but I think Coppola did the lion's share of the screenwriting (though both got credit and both won Oscars). Puzo's entire script for Superman was completely thrown out and rewritten from scratch by Tom Mankiewicz, but because of WGA rules, he could only be credited as "Creative Consultant." Listen to the DVD/Blu-ray commentary track from director Richard Donner and Mankiewicz, and you'll hear the whole story of why the script was thrown out and how it was rewritten.

I think the Puzo script is out there on the interwebs somewhere, and it's a bizarre mess. Mankiewicz was able to craft a cohesive story out of it, and -- for the most part -- it all made sense. The "Superman turns back time" plot element was something jammed in there because they opted not to end Superman I with a cliffhanger, as it was originally written: Mankiewicz ended the script with Superman finding the H-bomb and flinging it out into deep space, saving the world... but it opened up a hole in the Phantom Zone, releasing the Kryptonian villians. And then it went to a freeze frame and said, "To be continued in Superman II!" The studio balked at that, so they went in a different direction, which unfortunately did not make a lot of sense.

 

That's not entirely accurate. Puzo's script is a holy grail/white whale. No one's ever seen a copy who didn't work on the original films, to my knowledge. The draft that's out there is the later draft rewritten by Robert Benton, David Newman and Leslie Newman, covering part 1. I don't think anyone knows how much it differs from Puzo's original draft. Puzo's was large and did cover both movies. I'm not sure if we have a draft of Superman II by Benton and the Newmans that pre-dates Mankiewicz coming on board. The earliest draft out there seems to be Mankiewicz's. Because of the royalties Puzo demanded, WB would not release any kind of novelization or comic book adapting the original movie, because they would have had to pay Puzo.

Donner has said or implied in interviews that he and Mankiewicz "went back" to the original Puzo draft. I don't know if he means literally or in spirit. His criticism was that the other writers added in campy jokes like Luthor eating tissues and a cameo by Kojak. So Donner tended to talk more about what he took out of the script than what he added in. Some people have pointed out that certain things Mankiewicz seems to take credit for, or at least not deny it when Donner gives him credit during the commentary, are actually present in the Benton/Newman draft. I think the "you've got me, who's got you" line was one of them. So it doesn't appear Mankiewicz rewrote the whole thing from scratch.

I think Puzo's draft was described as serious and solemn, suggesting that the serious tone of the Krypton and Smallville scenes continued throughout the whole story in his draft. It seems that the Newmans added in a lot of comedy to the Metropolis scenes, and Mankiewicz kept that tone, but tweaked it to be less campy and more character-based. The "turning back the world" ending was never written into any draft of part 1. Donner had filmed it for part 2, but repurposed it for the ending of part 1 before wrapping shooting, because he didn't think the ending they had for part 1 was strong enough. Superman just saved Lois, he didn't have to bring her back from the dead. Lester had already been hired as a consultant on the movie by this point, and it was reportedly his idea to move the turning back the world ending to the end of part 1, which Donner approved of.

It's easy to get a sense of the Newmans' writing in Superman II and III, since they were Lester's writers on those movies. You can see the humor gets more frequent and more slapsticky, especially in part III. But they did have a good sense for comedic banter between Lois and Clark. They were a very logical choice to hire to write the movie, because the first credited writing work for Robert Benton and David Newman was on the 1966 Superman musical It's a Bird... It's a Plane... It's Superman. They then went on to write Bonnie and Clyde. Leslie Newman only had credits shared with David, the first being Superman.

This link looks like the Newmans' draft, when Guy Hamilton was attached to direct. It does have the "who's got you" line. It doesn't have the flying scene at the end of their rooftop date, it just stops at the end of the interview. But, overall, this is basically the movie. Mankiewicz did a draft that polished it up and added some important sequences, but kept a lot of material and didn't make any major structural changes.

http://www.scifiscripts.com/scripts/superman_original.txt

 

I haven't watched the Donner cut in a long time. (Didn't care for it.) The getting back at the bully scene is in the Lester cut too. I loved it. The theater roared at the scene when I saw it in its initial release. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously but I found it very satisfying.
Superman and Superman II are two of my very favorite movies and movie-going experiences.

 

I think Donner felt like the diner scene was in the Western tradition. This was the sheriff coming back to the saloon to teach the town bully a lesson. I've seen people on YouTube comment that the theater started roaring as soon as the shot of the diner appeared, because they were anticipating what was going to happen. It's so much fun. I don't know why anyone would object to it. Some people take the "morality" of superheroes too seriously. Usually if you go back to the 1940s comics, you see heroes like Batman and Superman doing edgier things, just like most movie action heroes today would. They might threaten to kill the villain if he doesn't reveal information, for example. It was only in the later decades censored by the "comics code" where you got all kinds of morality clauses put in place where the heroes had to be perfect examples for children all of the time.

 

I have a fan-edit that combines the best elements of the Donner and Lester versions of Superman II which I enjoy much more than the theatrical release.

 

Let us know when we can come over and watch it.

 

Yes. Maybe you’re right. I loved it as a child.

 

That whole Paris sequence is awesome. Loved that as a kid. It's obviously missing from the Donner cut and for that reason the Donner cut feels off to me.

 

I forgot. But (in the Donner cut) why would Clark go to the diner to teach a lesson to a bully who would have no recollection of him after turning back time? Is my timeline off?

 

The Mankiewicz shooting script of Superman II is online, but it's missing 9 pages near the end, that cover the turning back the world part. Presumably they were removed from the script after they made the decision to move that ending to part 1. There is apparently a progression where he turned back the world, then encountered a rude man at the Daily Planet which reminds him of the diner incident (this scene was shot and was in TV edits and deleted scenes), and then he returns to the diner. Below is the deleted scene. Notice Jimmy is talking about his "brand new camera," the one that he complains Non destroys earlier in the movie. So another sign that time has been reversed.

The logic would have to be that Clark knows this bully would've done the same thing again to someone else. So he goes to the diner, baits him into starting a fight, and teaches him a lesson. Or he's thinking that he's replaying history, and getting a do-over to make the fight come out the way it should have before. The only out of place line is the diner owner saying he "just had this joint fixed" which seems to be referring to their earlier fight smashing it up, but could be implying Rocky had other fights there. No one seems to give any indication that they recognize Clark in the scene.

 

Superman 2 remains one of my childhood favorites

 

Thank you. That makes sense.