Ok, any excuse to listen to Zep. Here's my Communication Breakdown findings. Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (US original?) - 8216 - Right ST-A-681461-B (later 70s pressing?) Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Left ST-A-681462-K Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Left -matrix SD 8216-B CD - Diament - Left Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Left CD- 10 cd set - Right CD - Early days - Right CD - 3 cd promo - Right CD- Mothership - Right SHM-CD - ?
Thanks, Rob. If anyone has an old vinyl pressing, please list the channels and matrix. Are there initials for the mastering engineer? I have never owned the 4 CD crop set and am surprised these original Marino/Page remasters for these two songs have the same channels as the Diament CD, 19126 vinyl, 8216 vinyl (member dkmonroe's side 1 - will have to see what side 2 is), and Classic Vinyl. Member ledsox's US vinyl (later pressing?) is the only pre-grey box/full album remasters which is different. "Communication Breakdown" (intro riff) Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (later US?) -- 8216 -- Right (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681461-B) [ledsox] Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Left (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681462-K) [ledsox] Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Left (Side 2 matrix: SD 8216-B) CD - Diament - Left Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Left CD- 10 cd set - Right CD - Early days - Right CD - 3 cd promo - Right CD- Mothership - Right SHM-CD - ? ------------------------------------------- "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You" Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (later US?) --- 8216 - Left- (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-B) [ledsox] Vinyl (US original?) - 8216 - Right (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-A) [dkmonroe] Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Right (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-H) [ledsox & dkmonroe] Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Right (Side 1 matrix: ?) [ledsox] CD - Diament - Right Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Right CD- 10 cd set - Left CD - Early days - Left CD - 3 cd promo - Left CD- Mothership - Left SHM-CD - ?
Are the channels for the other songs on the 4 cd "crop set" and the three songs on the follow-up Led Zeppelin [Box Set 2]* ("Good Times Bad Times," "I Can't Quit You," and "Black Mountain Side") the same as the Diament (and early LP) releases? Channels for Diament mastering vs. George Marino & Jimmy Page approved (and from the master tapes) '92 remasters. 1 Good Times Bad Times* 2 Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - same 3 You Shook Me 4 Dazed and Confused 5 Your Time Is Gonna Come 6 Black Mountain Side* 7 Communication Breakdown - same 8 I Can't Quit You Baby* 9 How Many More Times If I recall correctly, the version of "I Can't Quit You" from the "crop box" is the Coda version. The Led Zeppelin I version is on the 2 cd Led Zeppelin [Box Set 2] set. We need more vinyl. I can't see how the correct channels have been determined.
Because Led Zeppelin sound quality is not very good (in relative terms compared to other artists), particularly after their first two albums.
I seriously doubt that this view is shared by many forum members and I would urge the OP to discover his own conclusions. I would be willing to wager that it is your stereo system that is limited and not the material. Just sticking with III and HofH, I want to be certain that you are claiming that the music is "muddy". The following, on quick listen, stand out as examples that I don't see how anyone can find "muddy"...in fact they are so good that I need a drink now: LZ III Celebration Day Tangerine That's the Way *Bron-Y-Aur Stomp LZ HofH The Rain Song *Over the Hills and Far Away The Crunge D'Yer Mak'er The Ocean *absolute Kick-$$$...no question at all...bass, vocals, strings....stunning. You can't sit still for this stuff. Turn it up, up, up!!! Your claim is that the sound quality "not very good". This is 100% without any merit whatsoever. The sound quality is very good and frequently spectacular. And which artists would u care to compare with? At least u didn't bash LZ-II because I can assure you that it is just about as good as it gets. The separation of instruments. The live, in your living room experience is truly special.
For "Communication Breakdown", my 8216 US pressing tends toward the left channel (the guitar is really in both channels, but is louder in the left). The guitar solo starts in the right channel if that is relevent. Side B says ST-A-681462 - A
Thanks, David. This would mean the guitar solo on ledsox's pressing starts on the left (as his is opposite). The 8216 with the matrix ending with "B" is the only vinyl that is different. I assume the A mastering came before the B. ledsox says the B pressing is a later one from '79 (if I am not mixing up the info). Does anyone have original vinyl pressings from Japan, UK, Germany, etc.? Please and thank you. I'll put the Classic Vinyl off to the side and concentrate on the original Atlantic releases. Side 1 "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You" Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (later US?) --- 8216 - Left- (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-B) [ledsox] Vinyl (US original?) - 8216 - Right (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-A) [dkmonroe] Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Right (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-H) [ledsox & dkmonroe] Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Right (Side 1 matrix: ?) CD - Diament - Right Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Right CD- 10 cd set - Left CD - Early days - Left CD - 3 cd promo - Left CD- Mothership - Left SHM-CD - ? -------------------------------------------- Side 2 "Communication Breakdown" (intro riff) Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (later US?) --- 8216 - Right (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681461-B) [ledsox] <---- ledsox, should this matrix be ST-A-681462-B ? Vinyl (US original?) - 8216 - Left (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681462-A) [dkmonroe] Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Left (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681462-K) [ledsox] Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Left (Side 2 matrix: SD 8216-B) CD - Diament - Left Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Left CD- 10 cd set - Right CD - Early days - Right CD - 3 cd promo - Right CD- Mothership - Right SHM-CD - ?
My stereo is modest (in relative terms). But I believe that a higher resolution stereo would just further highlight the limitations of the source material. The clarity is not great to my ears. I disagree. The Beatles, Cat Stevens, Pink Floyd, Supertramp - to name a few. Anyway, I think that we should agree to disgaree.
Well, there you go again blaming a difference of opinion on the other persons “limited” equipment. I have heard it on much finer equipment than yours and I will agree with the others that the sound is not great fidelity. Apparently this is how it was recorded. I love the sound of Led Zeppelin and try to get the best out of it that I can, but as the saying goes, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Although, it would be interesting if multi’s exist for someone to take a shot at a remix someday.
so which tracks that i cited above are "muddy" or of generally poor SQ? and it is true that "limited" equipment can lead someone to a false conclusion and, in this case, some are just presuming that the recordings must sound worse on a higher fidelity system....do u also agree that HofH, for example, will fail to improve as a playback system gets better? We can disagree in the style of recording we like. If most here enjoy the precise, calculated, hyper-produced Steely Dan stuff....and nothing else, then that is fine I guess. To each his own. I am left wondering why all these audiophiles wasted big bucks on the LZ Classic LPs. They must enjoy a good sow's ear now and again....
I would agree simply because of the original recording quality on I and II, but I wouldn't hold that against them either. They are what they are and no mastering tricks will ever be able to fix them.
I'm not sure anyone agrees with this. A better playback system, by definition, sounds better. Duh! What most of us here are disputing is that a high-end system will somehow transform the Led Zep CD catalog into good-and-gooey, audiophile-grade, sonic nirvana. I'm glad you think it does, though. Your experience should be all that matters to you
I have the 32XDs and they sound good to me (imagine if these sounded like some of the poor Rolling Stones recordings [excluding Black And Blue]). The opening organ on my old Canada pressing of "Your Time Is Gonna Come" sounded great. The Led Zeppelin originals are the types of masterings that sound better (in most cases) as the system improves. Steve has talked about this stuff many times in the past (when he used to talk shop a bit more). Dave, you out there? Was "Presence" the one that didn't sound all that great at loud volume? Maybe you should push your speakers back up against the wall . *** Could I have a volunteer to check these 9 tracks (7 are left)? Thank you. Please compare the original Diament mastered Led Zeppelin I CD channels with the songs from the 4 cd "crop set" and the three songs on the follow-up Led Zeppelin [Box Set 2]* ("Good Times Bad Times," "I Can't Quit You," and "Black Mountain Side"). Channels for Diament mastering vs. Marino/Page "crop box". remasters. 1 Good Times Bad Times* - 2 Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - same 3 You Shook Me - 4 Dazed and Confused - 5 Your Time Is Gonna Come - 6 Black Mountain Side* - 7 Communication Breakdown - same 8 I Can't Quit You Baby* - 9 How Many More Times - If I recall correctly, the version of "I Can't Quit You" from the "crop box" is the Coda version. The Led Zeppelin I version is on the 2 cd Led Zeppelin [Box Set 2] set.
Hey, if you like the Organ only get the Canadian CD. If you like everything else get the 32XD. The GF would definitely be on your side Darcy, but the sound stage would collapse and definition would be lost. Yes, it was either Presence or Coda. I don't remember which one at the moment.
I actually share that sentiment. For me, II is the best sounding of the Zep catalog. The distortion, the "sounds like the levels are in the red" feeling just give it an organic quality that I don't think any other recording by any other artist ever equaled. And I am also pretty sure that this is a minority viewpoint around these parts. By a large margin Of course, because II was the first Zep I ever heard, circa 1970, when I was 9 or 10, and it was a musically life changing moment may have something to do with my fondness for it. Brian
I don't have the Box set 2 handy right now so I can only check 2 more songs. Channels for Diament mastering vs. Marino/Page "crop box". remasters. 4 Dazed and Confused - SAME 5 Your Time Is Gonna Come - SAME
Thanks again. Channels for Diament mastering vs. Marino/Page remastered "crop circle" box. 1 Good Times Bad Times - 2 Babe I'm Gonna Leave You - same 3 You Shook Me - 4 Dazed and Confused - same 5 Your Time Is Gonna Come - same 6 Black Mountain Side - 7 Communication Breakdown - same 8 I Can't Quit You Baby - 9 How Many More Times - The first Marino/Page masterings -- "crop circle" box -- have the same configuration as the 80s CD, two of the LPs, Classic Vinyl. How was it determined the Diament CD is "reversed" if only one LP (late seventies?) and the Marino/Page remastered albums (from the 10 cd "grey" box and as an individual title), which released after the "crop circle" box, are the only ones which have different channels? All tracks used on compilations released after the 10 CD "grey" box/individual Led Zeppelin I CD use the same channels as the individual album. Are the Marino/Page "crop circle" box masterings the same as the remastered Led Zeppelin I CD and just reversed or are they different masterings? If these are all from the master tapes the channels should be the same. They are not. ----------------------------------- Does anyone have original Atlantic vinyl pressings from Japan, UK, Germany, etc.? Please and thank you. I've put the Classic Vinyl off to the side to concentrate on the original Atlantic LP releases. From side 1 "Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You" Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (later US?) --- 8216 - Left- (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-B) [ledsox] Vinyl (US original?) - 8216 - Right (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-A) [dkmonroe] Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Right (Side 1 matrix: ST-A- 681461-H) [ledsox & dkmonroe] Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Right (Side 1 matrix: ?) CD - Diament - Right Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Right CD- 10 cd set - Left CD - Early days - Left CD - 3 cd promo - Left CD- Mothership - Left SHM-CD - ? -------------------------------------------- From side 2 "Communication Breakdown" (intro riff) Source / Guitar intro channel Vinyl (later US?) --- 8216 - Right (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681461-B) [ledsox] <---- ledsox, should this matrix be ST-A-681462-B ? Vinyl (US original?) - 8216 - Left (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681462-A) [dkmonroe] Vinyl (US reissue) - 19126 - Left (Side 2 matrix: ST-A-681462-K) [ledsox] Vinyl - Classic Vinyl - Left (Side 2 matrix: SD 8216-B) CD - Diament - Left Marino/Page: CD - 4 disc set (crop) - Left CD- 10 cd set - Right CD - Early days - Right CD - 3 cd promo - Right CD- Mothership - Right SHM-CD - ?
Darcy and Gorts, I'm thinking this channel discussion should really be moved out of this thread, both because it's a little off topic and because you're bound to get more responses about vinyl channel orientations in a thread with a title other than "Are 80's Zep cds really better". In fact, there are already several threads on the channel orientation issue where we could pursue this issue. Some candidates: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=159471 http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=137051 http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=131971
Wasn't it here that Zal stated that he simply pulled the Atlantic tapes for Marino and Page to work on? And wasn't it established that these were not the original masters but the Atlantic tapes that were used for both masterings?
Are 80's Led Zeppelin CD's really better? With a choice between a few mediums, plus the remaster, the original II CD is the most played Zep here. I'm comfortable with it.
If someone didn't already mention, Jimmy Page went back to the original multitracks and did a complete reMIX. That's how the remasters have a much cleaner sound. But Page probably EQ'd and maybe applied noise reduction (???) or whatever, and did the whole process digitally. That can result in aspects to the sound which some people don't like. If you hate noise and tape hiss and prefer more detail, the remasters are for you. But if you want a "smoother" or "warmer" sound you might prefer the originals. Great stuff either way!
Learning something new everyday; I knew that the Marino/Page CD's were remastered but did not know they were remixed
