Are CD-Rs brighter than the original CD?

Steve thought this would make an interesting thread, and I agree. To start it off, here is my previous post on the "best WHO'S Tommy CD" thread:

Is it possible that this 10k boost is added upon PLAYBACK, in the analog realm?

The reason I ask is that such an alteration to the data stream seems impossible. Perhaps this is an incorrect analogy, but I think of the data stream (zeroes and ones) on a cd as being similar to the data stream (letters and spaces) in a book. If the data stream of a book is corrupted, we would expect to find typos, misspellings and such, not actual word/sentence substitution - especially not in a way that would read as proper english.

Perhaps the D/A converters in a CD player are reading the CD-R data in a different manner than a regular CD, and making a less accurate conversion, which results in the 10k boost.

 

It does not happen.

 

That's the ONLY possibility, as the data on a CD-R is (if done right, and most often it is) EXACTLY the same as what's on the original.

I just wrote this in another thread, but here it is again:

If I take a pressed CD, rip the audio, burn it to a CD-R, rip *that* audio, then compare it with the original audio, they are the same. Nothing is being changed in the ripping or burning phases.

Next?

 

when I burn a cd on my computer the result is not a perfect copy. Perhaps my system is converting to mp3 ,then reformatting to burn on a new cd . the cdr is lower in output and maybe a little softer sounding. The program is called musicmatch.

 

There's a simple solution to that...

http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

Dubs on a computer should sound EXACTLY the same as the original. Any level changes are a huge red flag that something is wrong.

 

I'm going to leave this discussion for others, but one has to ask whether different CDR blanks impact the resulting copy?

I will say that I've done exact digital copies on my desktop PC, which sound different depending on the type of CDR blank.

 

I've actually found the opposite in that there is something being taken away, as opposed to added.

I just finished listening to Paul McCartney's Red Rose Speedway (thanks Gort Jr.) on both cd-r (burned on a Plextor 12/10/32 from a P3 using EAC) and the DCC version gold cd.

The cd-r lacks the life of the DCC. The DCC sounds slightly brighter, but not in a bad way. And it's been that way for every cd-r/original comparison, so far.

Claviusb, please feel free to jump in, as it was burned on your computer.

 

Nothing is being taken away.

Have you tried different blanks and/or players?

If something was being taken away a rip of the original wouldn't match the rip of the dub...

 

Agreed, My best EAC copies are a bit thin and are a little bright. I was just thinking of posting on this subject...

 

I deal with making CD-R's many hours of the day for clients. I've NEVER heard a CD-R that matches the source. Never, ever. Don't get me wrong, they sound fine, but on an A/B over our studio monitors, the "tonality"of the CD-R is indeed different. It doesn't bug us, just part of the game. An analog tape copy won't sound exactly like the original tape either.

Nothing to cry about, but to deny that it happens is foolish.

 

Well, how are you doing dubs? Stand-alone, computer, what? Do your dubs match the originals if you rip them both and compare them?

 

Re: Re: Are CD-Rs brighter than the original CD?

What doesn't happen? Explain, please.

 

Re: Re: Are CD-Rs brighter than the original CD?

Luke,

I have Cool Edit 2000 software, is there a way I can do this comparison that you speak of?

 

Re: Re: Re: Are CD-Rs brighter than the original CD?

Well, I've never used CE2000, so I don't know the specifics, but try this:

Rip the original CD to your computer. Burn it to CD-R. Rip that to your computer. Place both copies side by side in CE2000 so all 4 tracks will play at once. Make sure you have the two perfectly lined up. Now, invert 1. You should get silence. If you don't, something is getting changed along the way.

I get silence.

 

Re: Re: Are CD-Rs brighter than the original CD?

When you say the data is identical, do you mean the actual bitstream, or the waveform?

If the bitstream is identical, I don't see how it is possible for the CD player to distinguish the CD-R from the original CD, which would mean there is NO possibility of any sound difference.

 

I've cannot tell the difference in CDR copies from the originals as far as tonality is concerned. I use EAC and I have digitally ripped a track, burned it, ripped it again from the CDR copy and then compared wavs with the third gen copy and the original using the 'wav comp' function in the software. No change detected. I have to conclude that a digital rip should be the same as the original as long as drive offset compensation has been calibrated to account for any error correction that occurs.

 

<sigh> seems to me that 'thin ' and 'bright' would *both* manifest themselves in a spectral analysis comparison to the original (easily doable with Cool Edit, Goldwave, etc). HAs anyone -- including SH -- who claims that the CDRs sound different gathered any evidence of this sort?


If there *is* no difference in a spectral analysis, I would suggest trying a blind test
to see if the differences are due to expectation bias.

 

The thing is, there's no reason it *should* happen, assuming a bit-perfect copy.

 

No comment................ok, I'll comment.

This is a touchy situation. I mean, sane logic would certainly seem to say that if all numbers are the same, backed up by exact matching checksum and bit comparison tests, that everything should sound the same.

Yet, there have been times when I thought that I heard a noticable difference between a copy and an original (sometimes the copy better - sometimes worse), and even *very* subtle differences between different brands of blanks when burning from the same source. Again, when all things
measured identical. My only guess would be that it's actually the CD player, reading the disc upon playback, that is changing the output voltage during D/A. Perhaps, the de-emphasis circuit in the player, something corrupting the data stream...who knows. Again, in theory it shouldn't make a bit of difference (no pun intended) if the
1's and 0's are in the EXACT same place on the copy. But, IMO, too many people have commented on this over the years for it to simply be the blind leading the blind.

NOW...on the other hand, in a blind test, DON'T ask me to pick out which one's which...lol!

 

I'll just further add - that one way to maybe settle whether or not the CD playabck itself is somehow altering the data... would be to do a blind shootout between a ripped original and a re-ripped copy sourced from the CDR copy. Again, making sure all checksums and bit comparisons remain exactly the same. These 2 WAV files (snippets perhaps) could then be sampled, say via download, and compared without using a standalone CD player for playback. Might be interesting.

 

You guys crack me up. I use EAC and have for a year n a half. I can't see or hear differences, and I never could.

I think all of you are well thought-out charactors, and I have respect for you all. A CDR made with EAC or anything comparable makes the music sound different? Hah.

Oh, but a CDR cared well for, has a lower error correction ratio than the aluminum CD. That IS true.

 

Sorry folks, but I neither need nor desire a scientific explaination for the fact that CDRs are not 100% transparent. I hear the difference, and I believe it. I have, by the way, EAC completely configured right down to the offsets.

 

I'm in the camp of this lady! And that's where I'm stayin'. I know what I hear and you all can state that there's no way this should be possible. Well, all I've got to say is that we have 2 industry professionals (Steve and Angel) saying the same thing that I am, and even if you think "Dave doesn't sqwat" it might be wise to listen to the 2 people on this forum who do this sort of thing just about every day of their lives. Don't ya think?

 

My CD Copies come out exactly the same, always. I compare them using my Stax headphones. I have also blind tested, using other people, also. My 'hifisystem' is very revealing.
My PC system:-
P3 600, 256 Ram, HDrive with lots of space available (5GB +), Plextor 1210 TA IDE on the MASTER port (very important). I have used many different burning software, but didn't notice any difference, so I stuck with Nero in the end for it's all round use.
I use TDK CDR-XG as media.
I read an interesting article regarding copies on CDR's were actually of better quality, due to the 'blue on CDR's, where the normal silver was inferior? I cannot recall all the details.