Are there many reputable Chinese makers of amplifier?

Just to be clear, some of this is a bit far fetched....

You will not find a US model 219ia for $2500, anywhere. Used 219's are easily selling in the $4-$5K range. Even the grey market models are selling for over $2500 (there's one listed now f0r $3000). The grey market units are not approved for the US...heck they don't even come with the correct rated power transformers in them.

Chinese built items are always going to be less in Asia....just the way it is. Same as Rega being cheaper in the UK or Buicks being cheaper in the US.

And as to resale values, there are examples of Audio Note gear listed on Audiogon today alone that are well under retail pricing....so the notion of all audio note gear retaining values is not always the case (and I have nothing against the brand).

 

I would not say I am down on them - with most brands I like certain products and don't like certain products as much. Certain products are also less expensive where I live (Hong Kong) so they hold more value against the rest of the market than they might overseas - for Instance I remember the Bryston B60 integrated amplifier made in Canada - but in the UK it got a mere 3 stars out of 5 because it was up against the Sugden A21 (a much better sounding amp IMO and in the blind level matched sessions). But in Canada the Sugden is $1k more expensive, in the UK the Bryston is more expensive. Thus, how the Bryston would be regarded very much depends on the relative price of the machine where you live. The poor Aussies are paying through the nose for practically everything.

It also comes down a little to my individual need. Generally push pull and higher watt SETs are largely made more for lower efficiency speakers and since my speakers are easy to drive the "Value" isn't quite there for me any longer from an 845 output tube - it costs a lot more money to make an equivalent sounding 845 over a lower powered 300B, 2a3, 45 etc. Largely because the 845 tube demands a much larger output transformer to safely operate - but bigger isn't "better" but it needs to be bigger to operate safely.

This is the same thing with the 211 Jinro - this is an amp they rank as a level 3 sounding product that goes for over $20,000 because like the 845 it requires much larger transformers but they rate the Empress Silver as a level 3 (equal sound quality if different) and these are $7-$15k depending on version) but the point is a 2a3 is less costly to make even though with the right speakers they deem it to be equivalent sound quality.

So it's not really anything to do with Line Magnetic - I simply prefer the lower outputs tubes 2a3 and 45 in particular over the 845 and the high output tube I prefer the Jinro on up. LM doesn't make a 2a3 or 45 or a to my knowledge a 211. If they made parallel single ended 300B or 2a3 monoblocks I'd be interested. maybe they do - they seem to have a bnch of different models not on their website.

And I'm not really into Push Pull - the Kingko is an exception I suspect doe to the very smart choice of the EL84 which is tough to screw up.

 

Yes you are correct in one sense that you can see an Audio Note item selling for less than retail but that isn't an apples to apples comparison - unlike most every other brand Audio Note doesn't drop items from their catalog and the prices of things rise over time. So for example I bought my Audio Note J/Spe speakers in 2003 at the 2003 price. The current price for an AN J/Spe is more than double the 2003 price. So when I put my AN J/Spe up for sale I list it at $5500 retail price asking $3500. Hey pretty good deal - buyer pays a price that wound up being nearly 20% MORE than I paid for the speakers back in 2003.

The same thing applies to my OTO Phono SE integrated and my turntable which I sold for $600 more than I paid - for a turntable - one of the worst depreciating products around.

Even now I looked up audiogon and saw a pair of paper woofer AN E/LX speakers - he lists the new current list price for the speakers at $6800 and he is asking $4700 but I can tell his are much older models because the cabinet isn't one piece as you can see around the edges. So there is a pretty good chance these are 10 years old and back then the list price was probably $4700 AND no one pays the list price. There is a decent chance that he winds up getting what he actually paid for them maybe a bit more - maybe a bit less. But he never paid anywhere near $6800 so he will likely get near his asking price and if he does he won't lose much of anything.

Audio Note AN-E/LX HE HIGH EFFICIENCY LIKE NEW !!! | Full-Range | Audiogon

And that is one reason I am SO SO happy that I bought the AN J/Spe over the then same price speaker from Reference 3a (The MM De Capo) - the De Capo from 2003 was selling for less than 1/3 of original retail.

This resale value thing should work with any brand IF they keep the same model in the line-up for decades and the prices keep going up - it probably works for Shindo as I am sure the prices of any given amp have risen from the first year it was sold up until now - so the guy who bought the first Monbrison whenever it was first sold can put up his advertisement and cite the current list price and there is a good chance (assuming there is a decent market for it) will get what he paid or more than what he paid.

The problem with the Chinese makers - is they get bling happy and drop products and replace them too fast. And if a company drops a product that is a bit of a kiss of death for your resale value.

 

CLONES Audio. Awesome.

 

China is a very weird place. Many manufacturers have been lured there by their cheap labor. It's cheap because manufacturing is similar to what it was in America before the unions became prominent. I've been there to see manufacturing plants. They are at least 50 year behind the 1st world in manufacturing.

Now the question is whether or not there are reputable Chinese manufacturers. There are. But as with any company, leadership can quickly change along with their business practices. If you go to court in China, they will undoubtedly side with Chinese faction of the dispute. This is not to preclude that you shouldn't do business in China. But I would just suggest that you are foolish to hand over intellectual property of products that are the basis of your companies growth and future. If you do that, your future is probably doomed by grey market competition that will either bring down your brand or put you in a position where your own products are being sold without profits being returned to the proper IP holder. If you hand over older technology, you will probably be fine just to move your focus toward new product marketing.

 

Or maybe you are a designer of hi-fi gear and you happen to be Chinese so you just make it where you are and get distributors in other countries. It's not like the Chines are only capable of knocking off others' designs or manufacturing designs by people of other nationalities. JFC

 

Maybe you’re not aware of the fact that almost every single iPad, Macbook and iPhone have been (and are being) assembled in state-of-the-art facilities owned by Foxconn in China. The supply chain for the iPhone (for example) circles the world (e.g., sensors from Germany, sensors from Japan, ICs from the U.S., etc., etc., etc.).

And that’s just Apple products. Hundreds of thousands of other products are produced in the millions every day in Chinese factories - it has been a global phenomenon that started in the mid-‘80s. China isn’t “fifty years behind the first world” as you put it. China has been leading the first world in many areas of manufacturing. Now, many Chinese entrepreneurs are doing original design, developing all-China supply chains and manufacturing high quality, boutique products. Such developments are inevitable for precisely the same reasons that fostered what you mentioned that amounted to the great American push past its sweat shop generations, past its slavery generations, and past its European taskmaster origins.

There are a wide range of manufacturing facilities of all kinds in China, from the lowest-of-the-low sweat shops churning out cheap sportswear, to state-of-the-art fabs churning out everything from high-density ICs to buffer RAM.

We cannot and must not begrudge China its competitive edge. It’s stupid for me to whine about China’s edge in lower cost labor, because the Chinese middle class has already appeared and is growing. We just have to compete. The Germans do. The French do. The Italians do. The Canadians do. The Americans do. As wages rise, gradually, all over China, that country’s competitive edge gets thinner and thinner. Many Chinese factories have already begun middling-out to Indian factories.

But that’s not an end to the competition. Chinese operators have been pouring hundreds of millions into projects (e.g., engineering, R&D, infrastruture, etc.) on the African continent. Very, very soon now, we’re going to see the gradual rise of a very large and densely populated West African manufacturing zone with the same cheap labor pool that fueled the rise of post-industrial China.

Stop whining now, and learn to compete. The world has changed from the American rise to absolute pre-eminence at the top of the heap after WWII that occurred after the industrial infrastructure in most of the Europe had been devastated by six years of catastrophic war. Industrially and developmentally, the U.S. remains incredibly powerful, but it has been facing real competition - like nothing it has ever seen since the end of WWII - that has been growing for twenty-five years or more. Suggesting that China is fifty years behind the first world is thinking that does not in any way represent reality.

 

China has progressed very rapidly. If they are now outsourcing some of their labor as you describe it illustrates the rapidity of their industrial growth. Of course they are also hungry for new markets. In order to have new markets people must perceive quality( in the first world) and have money to spend. Development of production in new areas gradually brings more money and expertise into those areas.

 

Do it. They are a great little pre amp.

 

My question is: Who in their right mind would buy an LM 2181A from a US dealer for $350o or a 2191A for $7500 if they can buy them via the internet for $1500 & $3500 respectively from sources like china-hifi-audio .com?

I mean, I get that people would want to support dealers here in the US but this is getting ridiculous!

Or am I missing something important?

 

The 518iA is $4,500 in the US, although a dealer may give you a bit of a break, I doubt that you will be buying a new one for anywhere near $3,500.

Units for the Chinese and other overseas markets are mostly not the same voltages as units that are built for the United States market.

I might be tempted to buy a KingKo EL84 amp direct from the manufacturer, because of the manufacturer's reputation and the factory direct pricing. But, while I don't have any issues with owning quality gear built in China, I would not choose to do so, if they did not have a factory authorized presence in the US.

Warranty and support mean everything to me.

Some of my nicest and most valued equipment is made in China, Oppo, Emotiva (older amps), PrimaLuna and Line Magnetic, but I would not own any of these brands if I could not buy them through a local dealer who supplies after sales support and warranty and out of warranty service.

 

The units purchased direct from China are the incorrect voltage for the US, so you either have to run a 220 circuit to your room or run a step down transformer. You also have zero warranty and no parts support so good luck if something breaks or goes wrong at any point.

 

And to further answer your question, quite a few people purchase LM units from US dealers. LM has been the most popular electronics line in my store for the past two years. (with Rogue and PS Audio being close behind). LM is still a bargain at it's price point for the performance.

 

And that is why the Kingko is a tougher sell - Because if it does have a problem you have to either ship it all the way bacck to Hong Kong or have it repaired by a "catch-all" repair shop. Soundhounds in Victoria BC was great - they could repair any product from any brand and kept stocks of rarer parts that many other shops didn't have - but that is going the way of the dodo.

The question has always been how much do you want to pay for the warranty - for instance the Kingko in the US if it was picked up by an importer and dealer would Double or Triple the price to you. So if it broke - you could literally buy one or two more of them. This was always my issue with Bryston - it isn't any better than Rotel for 1/2 the price - Soundhounds carried both lines and you can see by looking inside - Rotel gave the standard 5 years. But you are PAYING for that extra 15 year warranty. They break down just as often.

You have to weigh what the repair bill will likely be versus the difference in price paid. If the Rotel is $1k and the Bryston is $2.5k and the Rotel blows a cap - well maybe you pay $200 for the cap and the repair. But chances are if it lasts 5 years it will last 20 years just like the Bryston.

With the Chinese amps you have to do the same math. Most tube amps only provide 1-2 year warranties so if the cheaper amp you buy direct from China are not DOA chances are they will last you well beyond the warranty. And let's face it - we can't assume that a guy who has $3500 to spend on amplifier ALSO had $7500 to spend on an amplifier. So if he only has $3500 and he wants an LM 219IA then maybe he decides to take the risk.

Unfortunately this is the problem with the Chinese OEM makers. The way around it has been to make a Gold Series that only sells in the US or do what Grant FIdelity did and have your own company label over the Chinese manufactured amp. Similar to Triode Corp amplifiers - they are made by LM but there is no LM equivalent - exclusive amps to Triode . and their sexy paint jobs. And affordable price tags.



Remember every single person that buys a second hand amp on AudioGon or AudioMart etc are generally buying a product with no warranty and are ultimately taking the same kind of risk.

 

Speak of the Devil! Someone just listed a 519iA in the Equipment for Sale forum yesterday. It is one of those 220V units. Listed for 4k.

Line Magnetic LM-219IA

 

My understanding is that many Chinese electronic devices are going to have tariffs placed on them shortly by the US government, we Americans, are going to have the price increase.

 

Good to hear you're still liking the Kingko!

 

That would mean that iPhones and the new Pixel 3 are going to be even more outrageously priced (among other things)? If that happens - if tariffs are levied on those products - you can bet that Apple will assert that “assembled” and “manufactured” are two different things, and then take the government to court to prove its point.

In a globalized economy filled with complicated products designed in one country and then assembled in a different country from parts sourced from other several other countries, tariffs are senseless and arise from utter ignorance. Such tariffs amount to a costly firewall that only benefits the government that is collecting the fees. But none of those fees benefit the consumers who end up paying higher retail prices for everything being burdened by the tariffs.

The threat of such tariffs is a negotiating tool. The actual imposition of such tariffs is simplistically ignorant. They’re an idiotic anomally that probably won’t survive the decade because tariffs don’t even help the country that imposes them.

When countries surround themselves with tariffs and threats and isolationist positions, other countries begin looking elsewhere to do business. Such countries look elsewhere, because business generally follows the path of least resistance and lowest cost. Believing and acting otherwise is simply foolish and a recipe for failure. As new trade relations are established over time, the habit of dealing with the previous customer gradually fades as new systems develop.

As always, the problem with being isolationist and self-centered is that you end up alone and stagnant. The inevitable result is that the isolationist country still wants to make its goods and sell them in other countries. But those countries then ask why they should bother when the isolationist country imposes cockeyed import tariffs.

China continues to struggle with a lot of its old isolationism too. To this day, it remains difficult to break into Chinese domestic retail markets of all kinds. That it’s somewhat easier than it was in the late ‘90s is only the difference between absurdly difficult and very difficult. Market access continues to ease in China, but it’s still not for the faint of heart. Again though, the rise of the Chinese middle-class is fueling ever greater demand for western products designed by westerners - high fashion, wristwatches, Scotch, and you-name-it. The attractions are the uniquely western qualitative aspects of the products, their cultural foreignness, and their association with stylistic fame, celebrity popularity, etc., etc.

In order for Chinese entrepreneurs to develop, market and merchandise their domestic products in a way that has sufficient cachet and reputation to attract domestic buyers, the product designers and makers have to do the same thing that great domestic marques in German, France, Canada, Denmark, England, Scotland, the U.S., and in many other western countries have previously done. The Chinese entrepreneurs in high-end audio have to associate their marques with authoritative establishments outside the domestic market. Develop a product, send it to foreign reviewers in the popular media, earn great reviews, then bring the product back into the country (in a manner of speaking) and say, “See? It’s superb! And it’s made right here!” But for that to happen successfully, the products first have to make the global round trip.

 

If you're curious, here's a little info about one of China's tube amp manufactures (MingDa) with background, certifications and photos.
I have one of their EL34 amps with Jensen caps. I ordered it direct from the factory and so far no problems after 3 years. Just FYI.

Mingda Handicrafted High End Valve Amplifiers

 

Doge has good quality gear or at least it was several years ago. I have a Doge preamp from 2009 which is excellent. However they used to have a US distributor who tested the units before sale here and serviced them. Doge dropped them and now sells direct from China. So there is a bit of a risk if your unit develops a problem. Might search for a used one which gives you cash for a routine repair if needed.

 

I sure wish they would learn how to build long lasting quality cd transports.

 

If they could only do that one little thing.

 

And not just on electronic's.

 

Yaqin are 120 volts AC shipped to USA. Any tech in USA can repair a Yaqin as the amps use common discrete parts.

 

Whatever one may think of its politics (and none of us are perfect on that score...) China is a modern, sophisticated nation and a huge amount of mass-produced 'western' goods are manufactured there anyway. I have a Chinese headphone amp (M-Audio) and it is superb. I agree that it helps if you can find a local distributer rather than buying direct, sight-unseen but there are great products at bargain prices out there. IMO of course...