At what point does a system provide the benefit of a 45rpm over 33rpm vinyl record??

I had posted up thread that I hear a difference and blindly A/B’d the 33 and 45 for a friend (non-audiophile, but he has good ears), who had similar impressions as I did. What is lending to that? The music comes through on a larger sound stage, with more slam, better imaging, and a greater sense of “ease” than the 33 to my ears. What is lending to that? Is it the lower noise floor due to the record being cut louder? Is it the ability of a stylus to track more accurately at the 45rpm speed? Is it placebo? I find the latter hard to believe as a friend had similar comments on a blind A/B and I trust my ears.

 

The biggest suspect to me would seem to be the increased volume that in general makes everything sound better, more slam, bigger sound etc. Im sure you tried your hardest to make it equal, but it was left slightly louder for the 45.
In the end its hard to say without more conclusive testing I suppose. We may believe there was a difference, but the interesting part is knowing what the cause is.

 

Interesting, I’ve heard similar impressions as mine regarding the sound of 45rpm from various other members here. What would make a cart “like” a speed more?

So if they are the exact same, what is the point of even doing a 45 rpm set for a sub-40 minute album, such as Rumours or the countless jazz 45rpm reissues?

Is all of this just marketing BS (taken from MMJs website, “Why 45rpm?” by Kevin Gray)?

“After 60 years the good ol’ analog LP is still one of the highest resolution sources of music distribution available. It has a solid, palpable, satisfying sound that no digital format has yet equaled, let alone surpassed. The most unfortunate thing about the LP is that it was really starting to flourish back in the mid-80s, just as the record companies tried to kill it.

Advances in cutter heads (the device that etches the groove in the master lacquer disk) and cutting electronics reached a pinnacle in the early 80s. Digital computers arrived on the scene in their best role: out of the audio chain, but doing machine-control to adjust the groove spacing one the record for maximum playing time and recorded volume. 180 gram virgin vinyl pressings were the next development, and last but not least, around the late 70s, 45 RPM 12” LPs started to appear.

Why 45, you ask? Because it sounds better! In record mastering the tiger the recorded level and frequency, the greater the groove curvature. Curvature isn’t usually a problem, per se, on the outside of a 12” 33 1/3 record, but as the groove moves toward the center, its relative speed slows down and curvature increases. Yes, it is still turning at 33 1/3 revolutions per minute, but consider: one revolution takes 1.8 seconds. That 1.8 seconds at a 12” diameter is covering a lot more territory than at the minimum 4.75” diameter. The result is actually a loss in high frequencies, and increase in distortion as the groove moves to the center. The problems start when the curvature of the groove equals or exceeds the diameter of the playback stylus. What can be done about it? Many things have been tried, but there is no “magic bullet.” Keep the recorded volume at a reasonable level (read: on scale with the meters) is the first thing. Play the record back with an elliptical or line-contact stylus that has a smaller tip radius. And, if possible, make the record short enough to keep the music away from he very end of the disk. This isn’t always possible, of course.

BUT, if we spin the disk at 45 RPM we now have a 35% increase in groove velocity at any point on the disk. This is a huge advantage! Yes, the groove still slows down as it moves inward, but the effects are greatly reduced. The only problem is that the amount of recorded time is now also reduced by 35%. What do you do about that? (Hint: split up the LP into 4 sides on 2 records.) Now you’re cookin’, Doc! Yep, twice the mastering cost, plating cost, pressing cost, label and jacket costs. It’s enough to make the bean-counters break down and cry. But, the sound! Oooooh, yeah! This isn’t sales hype, it’s physics. Listen for yourself. You tell me if it’s worth it. A lot of music lovers think so… and they are right!"

 

That is a fair question. I will try to relisten to both in the next few days to compare. I will use a dB meter to match, or perhaps purposefully set the 33rpm disc louder, to see if the qualities follow the volume.

 

I’m sure others here have A/B’d other albums that were released on both 45 rpm and 33 rpm at the (relatively) same time, with the same engineer and (assumes) equipment. Some of the AP albums come to mind. I’m curious as to how others hear it.

 

Sounds like a great idea. Ill be on the hunt for a cheap 33 to see what I can hear.

 

Were the 33 and 45 not cut using the same lathe or technique? Or do you need another for the speed difference?

 

This is the closest I could find in my collection between a 45 and 33.
Both cut and mastered by Ludwig. The 12 inch single has his sig as well which I thought was kinda neat.
Both on translucent vinyl
Simple Minds-Alive & Kicking, 1985
Both are raw recordings
33-From the US album Once Upon A Time
Dropbox - 33 sample.wav - Simplify your life
45-From the US 12 Inch Single
Dropbox - 45 Sample.wav - Simplify your life

 

The 45 sample sounds more natural, more LF, fuller, energy and clarity. The 33 sample has no fuller, just more reverb and metallic sound. Nice needledrops!

 

Thanks. Lucked out with some really clean players.
I have no opinion yet, still need to listen back on the big system. My PC headphones aren't up to the challenge

 

It might be so that the cutting using a higher velocity yields a better groove. Seems likely to me; not the playback per se.

 

I'd assume there may be different mastering choices on an album as opposed to a single. Is that why you say that, Steve? Otherwise, it's the same engineer, same year, presumably (on my part) same equipment.

 

I easily heard the differences. I played the samples directly through my PC audio card with ASIO 2.1 driver latency 10 ms, bit-to-bit, no coloration, at PCM 96/24 output (Sabre32 DAC) -> TOSLINK -> 3-ways standfloor speakers (SPL 87) + sub.

 

Maybe the PVC pellets used to make the vinyl records are different.

 

The 33 sample seems to have higher peaks and the 45 sample seems to be more compressed. So, different mastering choices.

 

But why would the grooves be wider for the 45 then?

 

Agree completely, you have to compare the same exact albums to really compare the two speeds. I really wanted to put this issue to bed once and for all. I hate turning a record over after two or three songs, but I would if I could really hear a difference. What better test than one of the best pop albums that imo has ever been recorded? And mastered by our host, no less. Of course, it’s the Rumors album from Fleetwood Mac. I love the sound of the 45 rpm version. It’s just incredible. But I hate how it’s broken up into four sides. Wanting to solve that issue, and see if indeed 45 sounds better, I bought the same album, same mastering and same pressing facility at 33rpm. I have a pretty darn nice vinyl set up (VPI Prime, Soundsmith Zephyr cart, Chinook tube pre). And I know this recording extremely well, like many here. Sorry to say, I heard absolutely zero difference. Nada. If there is any, it’s so insignificant it isn’t worth the flipping over every eight minutes. For me, and I own a number of 45 lps, that closed the book on that issue once and for all.

I have been buying the ABBA reissue albums cut at Abbey Road, 1/2 speed mastered at 45rpm. All of my domestic early first pressings are better to significantly better. So, I just think the 45rpm aspect is marketing and a reason to charge more. I have the Mobile Fidelity One Step of the S&G Bridge Over Troubled Water. It’s nothing short of excellent, but I am pretty certain now that the speed has nothing to do with it. There is no 33 version using this process for that album they have issued that uses the same mastering, and I bet there never will be. I am confident if they did that, it would sound exactly the same and perhaps people would be more hesitant to spend $125 on a 45rpm album. Sure, there are some believable technical things people are saying where theoretically they can sound better, but it’s my ears I trust and they tell me to stick with the 33’s when possible.

 

And so does the 33.

 

Absolutely zero difference?