Avantgarde Trio set up revisited question

Hi everyone

New member here so please be gentle with me.

I have had Avantgarde Trios for about 15 years and while they are enormously rewarding every little positional change makes a difference. Distance apart, angle down and toe in, sub woofer integration and how that affects everything else. There is a trade off between the best main speaker integration with SUB225 subwoofers for imaging, against how far the main speakers are from you for best tonal integration (if that makes any sense). The best speaker position doesn't allow the best bass integration with the main speakers. Basically, if the bass is best driving the room the imaging isn't best and the integration between subwoofers and bass isn't quiet right. The room is 28.5 x 23.5 x 8 feet, and its almost like that isn't quite big enough to get integration in all planes. Perhaps I just need bigger subwoofers that drive the room better...Don't get me wrong, they are wonderful I'm just aware I think there could be more...

When I set them up I have finally ended up with an approach of starting with positioning the subs in the room for best driving of the room then positioning the main speakers broadly according to golden ratio. I then compromise on both to integrate as best I can.
There is a lot of knowledge on this forum and I thought a recap might be useful.

Does anyone have experience with setting them up? How do other people start?

Thanks!

 

Bump?

 

Get a copy of Jim Smith’s GET BETTER SOUND. You can also reach him at [email protected]

The Trios were his reference at one time.

 

I think you need a larger room for those Trios.

I have the Avantgarde Duo speakers (with SUB225 woofers also) and as you can see (pic taken over a year ago) the listening space is really large (although not as wide as I would like) as it opens to a second level of the house. This lets the speakers really "breathe" and the distance from the listening seat (about 12') allows the imaging to coalesce as best this type of speaker can, which is pretty good. But most importantly the positions you see were chosen for the optimal bass response ("room lock") from the speakers, and any space wider apart to obtain the widest soundstage causes the bass to suffer. So at the expense of a wide(er) soundstage I chose the position of the best bass and overall response.

I'm sure the sound would really suffer if I had 8' ceiling height, but you have to work with what you've got I guess. I'm just very lucky to have the large, uneven space to listen in.

 

Damn dude, I'd pay to hear those. I loved them from when Bruce had them at Stereo Unlimited.


M~

 

Thanks for the reply Steve. I'm very pleased with the sound but I'm very aware it could always be better. I suppose I think the subs aren't quite man enough.
As soon as I can work out how to add a pictuire I will..?

 

My room is 28 x 23.5 feet. I'm sure Trio's have been used in smaller rooms successfully. Which is why I suspect the SB225's may be the issue. I'm trying to make sure I'm getting the best I can from them. Its not so much that I'm fundamentally unhappy!

 

I don't have Avantgarde's, but it seems to me that the sub drivers are on the small size for your room.

My room is about 450 Sq. Ft., and I use a commercial sub to get the bass that I want. There is also a 2nd large home sub at the back of the room.

I think that there is only so much bass that you are going to realize out of something the size of the SB225's.

@Otlset has many years with his Duo's.

 

Interesting, reinforcing my thoughts. Many thanks
I'd be interested in @Otlset thoughts.

Regards

 

In my listening space the bass is fantastic with just the original SUB 225 woofer sections, in fact one of the better features of the sound. This after many speaker positioning changes some years ago to find the very best placement of each for optimal bass response. The crossover is set to 160Hz, and the volume is set to exactly half. By the way, the listening seat is more like 9' from each horn opening, not 12'.

The amp driving the Duos is a David Berning "Siegfried" SET amp with his unique "ZOTL" impedance converter that replaces the traditional wire-wound output transformers, putting out about 10 watts/channel. Sounds low, but as you know with these speakers there's plenty of "slam"!

But in your case you must cope with your room, so I guess I agree with SandandGlass: Get a separate powered sub, or two. That should do it once it/they are optimally placed in your room. That way you can arrange the Trios for maximum soundstage effect.

 

I have large towers for bass down to 40-Hz on the front mains that perform double duty for HT and stereo, but I use a 15" horn loaded commercial sub, powered by a Crown class "D" amplifier, which produces 1,600 watts, running in bridged mono mode, into the sub, which can put out a continuous SPL off 133-dB.

I run it with my SS amps for stereo and HT, and also with the Altec's, which run strictly on complete valve amplification chain.



When there is sub-bass information present in the source material, you know when it is there! There is also a large home sub connected to the rear towers.

My room has only 8' ceilings. When it comes to pressurizing a room with LF sound energy, the volume of the room really comes into play and you need to move a LOT of air in a large room to accomplish this feat.

 

133db. Now THATS aa serious bass set up....

 

So the consensus seems to be I need to think about changing the subs in this room. OK. Thanks everyone!
- How do I upload a photo?

 

Photos are not stored on the server, except for your uploaded avatar.

Set up a free image hosting account on

Imgur

You can upload pictures to imgur, and then you can link them here.

Set up your image hosting account and if you need some assistance, let me know and I can walk you through it.

It is very easy and works well. It is what I use.

 

Thanks, thats really helpful. I wondered why I couldn't upload a file from my laptop... I'll upload a picture of the room tonight.

 

My understanding is that the Trio (which came in different configurations) sounded best when supplemented with the bass horns- only problem aside from space, was price.
I've had Duos for 10-11 years and had the same integration problem using the same woofers. I supplemented by adding a pair of 15" servo woofers from Rythmik (not terribly expensive) and running them in parallel to the main speaker system from an additional line output on my line stage; I also use the Dspeaker Anti-mode 8033SII (or whatever the last version is) that provides DSP to even out some of the peaks. Using a single Dspeaker means two summed outputs, not stereo bass. But I cross over the subwoofers low- at 55hz with a steep (-24db/octave) curve. What that means is that the subwoofers are mainly doing deeper bass not mid bass.
The problem you describe is not uncommon to the Duo. You get the bass loud enough so it kicks, and it sounds discontinuous with the midhorn; if you tune it so that it blends, it sounds somewhat emasculated. My solution was to keep the woofers integrated in the Avantgarde tame and let them blend as best I could with then midhorn, and add the subs for the deep bass. (In my estimation, the 225 woofer system isn't really a "sub" in the sense of add on subwoofers for big bass). The other workaround was multiple 225s, but my bet is you can probably achieve more using another subwoofer system. The DSP helps and doesn't interfere with the coherence of the main speaker system for the reason described above. It just took some time to reposition the speakers and tune everything (but I was in a new room anyway, so I had to do this in all events).
Jim is the man when it comes to setting these up. I don't know if he'd do a phone consult with you-- he does travel to voice systems, but if you are in the UK, that's going to add to the cost.
What amp are you using for the Trio?
I added a photo, below, to show my current set up:

DSCF0747 by bill hart, on Flickr

 

Great post Bill. Your experience and solution is very helpful, thank you. I have Jim's book and have applied many of its recommendations.

The more I think about what other people have posted here the more I think the problem is solved by replacement not enhancement or "better" set up . I have heard SUB230's in this room, and they do drive better, but aren't worth what they cost. I suspect a pair of REL212's would be better, IMO.
I agree with your comments on multiple 225's. I agree they aren't really subs. I'm not going to try to supplement the 225's with something else.

Sorry I can't upload a picture. When I try to use Imgur and insert the URL I just get this


My question is answered though, so thanks everyone!

 

Hey bro, amazing looking setup! The turntable alone is something to behold. I think we may be the only forum members with Duos.

 

Dang, enough eyeballing! For the record, 11' 10".

 

Ha! Finally susssed out how to upload a photo

 

Oooohhh nice! Dramatic looking.

 

I've heard the Avantgarde's, but I am somewhat familiar with different horn speakers. It looks like you have these setting very wide apart from each other.

Seems like you would have a hole in the middle.

How far is your seating position from the front of the horns?

My A7's are 7' apart and I sit 11' away and I would like to place them a couple of feet closer together, but the confines of the room do not allow for doing this.

Here is a picture of the room back in 2013, when I first installed the A7's.



To the reader's who are familiar with the "regular" way to set up home speakers in a equilateral triangle, this principle usually does not apply when using constant directivity horns.

A quote on constant directivity horns at sweetwater.com;

"A horn provides more sound pressure level (SPL) at a given listening area by increasing the directivity of the sound towards the listener. There is more sound at the listening area, and less sound outside of that area. By analogy, think of focusing a beam of light (from a flashlight or torch). A widely focused beam spreads the light around, reducing the intensity at any one point. However, a narrowly focused beam provides much more light intensity at the center, and much less in the surrounding area. Properly designed horns can also act as a waveguide that actually serves to spread higher frequency sounds out in a much more consistent manner than would otherwise happen.

 

They are so dramatic looking. The 225 is really dwarfed by them. I wonder what some horn loaded woofers would do = you could have those made with little trouble using some good drivers and use a proper amp rather than the plate amps.
Also wonder if that little partition wall and gear in the middle has any impact- I know the directivity of horns makes that less of an issue, but still. If you are giving up the Trios (which you seemed to imply), there is a fellow who posts on the various high end fora who might be interested in them- I believe he is in London. Happy to try to reach out to him if you like and put you two together.
PS Hate to see you get rid of them. If you could get Jim a cheap plane ticket...