Banding..

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Veech, Oct 14, 2004.

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  1. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    ok I'm making another compilation disc for friends and every time I do, I struggle with how much space to leave between songs. I usually trim the beginning of a wave file so the song starts almost immediately, like within .1 second. I like songs packed tight, and sometimes cross-fade from track to track. Ever since 1966 when the short banding on Pepper shocked me I have been a fan of the practice. (what, no more 4 seconds -- an eternity -- to digest the last song before hearing the next one?? - outrageuos!)

    So now I usually leave about .75 - 1.0 sec at the end of a song, hardly ever any more than that. What do you folks do?
     
  2. GMav

    GMav Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    Veech,

    Pepper?.............in 1966?.....................Hmmmmmmmm

    Greg
     
  3. daveman

    daveman Forum All Star

    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Maybe he was a big shot record exec and got an advance copy! Never know ;)
     
  4. GMav

    GMav Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    That would be a pretty good trick....seeing as the album hadn't even been recorded yet............LOL

    Greg :righton:
     
  5. Veech

    Veech Space In Sounds Thread Starter

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    *HAR* and you know I know better.. sheesh! ok, '67..
     
  6. GMav

    GMav Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salem, Oregon, USA
    LOL............welcome back, Veech!!

    Greg
     
  7. Grant

    Grant Senior Member

    Location:
    United States
    Hi Veech!

    I struggle with this all the time. I don't like leaving the standard two-second gap on anything. What I do is go by feel. In other words, listen to how each song flows into the next...well, you know this. Some songs require long fades and rests, some work better butted up against each other. I love tight edits and sometimes crossfades as well, but they don't always work.

    If I were making a comp for someone, I would try to leave at least one second between songs in case they ever want to record the CD tracks onto tape. This way, they can be assured that their CD player will cue up properly, as some don't. Besides, I find that most people like a bit of space between songs. The only way I ignore this is if I give them a copy of one of my personal copies. Then, they are stuck with whatever mastrering decisions I make.

    I never trim off the beginnings of songs unless there is more than one second of silence. I do my tight edits and crossfades in the CD authoring software. If I do a vinyl transfer, and there are tight edits on it, I preserve them on my CD-R.

    I'm probably rambling to you now, but let the songs tell you what to do. For that to work, one needs to have the skill of good song sequencing, which is a lost art in professional production these days.
     
  8. quentincollins

    quentincollins Forum Word Nerd

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    For me, it all depends on the songs I'm putting on a mix. I spend a LOT of time sequencing my mixes and making sure the gaps between songs are just right. For instance, if I have a heavier song followed by a more mellow song or vice versa, I might leave a longer gap in. If I have a song ending on, say, a "D" chord and the next song begins with the same chord, I might leave a shorter gap.

    Thus, I can't really give a definite answer. Gap length varies a lot for me, and it all depends on the feel of the flow.
     
  9. qwerty

    qwerty A resident of the SH_Forums.

    I checked the gap lengths in EAC for Dylan's Highway 61 and was surprised how much EACH gap length varied.
    When burning disks, I will sometimes leave a longer gap if, for example, I am adding some live tracks to the end of a studio album. The longer gap gives a bit more time to adjust to the changed recording quality.
     
  10. Cheepnik

    Cheepnik Overfed long-haired leaping gnome

    If I'm doing one for myself, it's lights out -- crossfades, edits, whatever self-indulgent silliness that sounds good to me.

    If it's for someone else, I don't do any of that unless I let them know first that it's meant as a "program" to be digested in one sitting. Otherwise I leave a full second of silence at the end of each track, one-third of a second at the beginning (not all players can handle tracks with no "buffer" before the music starts), and two seconds between tracks. That way, people can use the songs however they want -- put them on their iPods, make their own comps, whatever.
     
  11. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 Non-essential

    Location:
    OH
    For non-needle-drops, I go by "feel" (what Grant said). I usually leave the silence at the end of the song the same as the CD from which I'm burning. Sometimes I add a second or two. Sometimes I remove a gap so one song slams in to the next. It just depends on the comp.

    I recently made a CD-R of the "Doors 13" album using a combination of DCC and the 1999 remasters as my sources. I left the gaps between songs the same as the CD's, except I added a few extra seconds between "side 1 and 2" (after Roadhouse Blues for those of you not familiar with this album). For my CD-R of the mono Magical Mystery Tour, I used the Beatles EP box as my source for side 1 - I removed all gaps since the original Capitol vinyl did not have any gaps (plus it has a different running order)

    If I'm doing a straight needle-drop I do not fade out between songs - if there are ticks and pops, so be it. It's part of the experience, and I'm making the CD for myself anyway.
     
  12. Grant

    Grant Senior Member

    Location:
    United States
    When I do neelde drops, I almost always put in at least four, five, or more seconds of space between the "sides". Then, again, it's about how it all flows.
     
  13. JoelDF

    JoelDF Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    For comps, I go by feel too.

    Sometimes if I have a rock song that comes to a hard stop, and the next song I have in mind has a good hard start, I'll time them so the next song starts at about the beat that would follow the previous songs last beat. Usually, I won't do more than a one second gap even with fades.

    For album needle drops, I leave the same gap that the album had since I don't break the sides up into individual wave tracks.
     
  14. rdnzl

    rdnzl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    I do self-made compilations usually without any space between the tracks - simply because I seem to end up often with really full discs, so I need every little second :D . If there is space left, I sometimes leave some gaps where I feel they do belong...
     
  15. I'm a "no gap" kind of guy. Back when I was making compilations on cassettes, I had this down to an artform. I essentially had to drop the needle, and listen to the vinyl crackle pattern a few times before I knew exactly where a song would start. I could release the "pause" button within a fraction of a second of a song's start. When I had finished recording a song, I would rewind about one-two seconds backwards, and then overlap the beginning of the next song. The original sound would "bleed through" making a sort of cross fade. I was the tape making master. Had my technique down and everything.

    I sometimes burn CDs and remove some of the silence between tracks (sacriligious, I know). I cannot abide the 4 seconds between "Let's Spend the Night Together" and "Jean Genie" on "Aladdin Sane". I was very happy that the new "Let It Bleed" has a tighter sequence. I agree with most of what has been written so far, however. Sometimes, a little breather between songs is necessary.
     
  16. Cheepnik

    Cheepnik Overfed long-haired leaping gnome

    So in other words, making a great tape isn't much different from giving a good foot massage?
     
  17. Well, no one ever threatened to throw me out of a fourth story window for making a great tape. :wave:
     
  18. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All

    Location:
    New York
    Yep ... agree with the consensus so far. For needle drops of albums, leave the gaps as on the original vinyl. For comps, go by feel. (Of course, if you have obsessive/compulsive tendencies -- and is there anyone on this board who doesn't? -- you can drive yourself crazy with this.)

    I made dance mixes for my wife's birthday party last year, and what I did was to figure out the tempo of each track using a metronome, then crossfade together tracks of similar tempos so that the beats matched up. Some of the pairings were of the same genre, some of very different genres. The job took weeks. The results varied, but a few were so good that the dancers just went ape when they heard them! That made it all worthwhile.
     
  19. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff

    Location:
    NY
    Wow!, I used the same approach in the old cassette days. Actually, I would wind the tape back a turn or so with a pencil, pause, record, release pause, and voila! an ersatz cross-fade! I also got pretty good at converting the tape counter to minutes and seconds, so I could estimate how much time was left on each 45 minute side (which usuall was about 47 minutes).
     
  20. Cheepnik

    Cheepnik Overfed long-haired leaping gnome

    A metronome? How quaint. ;) There are programs that will measure the BPMs in .WAV files.
     
  21. Cheepnik

    Cheepnik Overfed long-haired leaping gnome

    :laugh: Same here. As I recall, a minute of tape was worth about 13 "clicks."
     
  22. RZangpo2

    RZangpo2 Forum Know-It-All

    Location:
    New York
    Now you tell me! ;)
     
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