Best speakers positioning and their sound

Read this today.

Good sound stage comes from behind the speakers. Really good sound stage is projected in front of the speaker.

Was curious how you know you have great positioning. I notice i hear good sound coming from behind my speakers. Have them far from my wall. Small room though. 15x15 and sitting 6ft from my speakers. Speakers also 6ft apart.

I have record shelves against my wall. Speakers are standing in front of that (15 inch plus shelf 18 inch, so 32 inch from walls.

Anybody here has really good soundstage in front of their speakers in a small room?

 

A photo of your room would be good

 

Was more wondering how others would describe their positioning and soundstage.

 

On good recordings I have the singer right in front of me (and in front of the speakers) and the instruments slightly behind the speakers. However I got an unusual room layout. My speakers are positioned left and right of a large sliding doors separating kitchen and living. The speakers are close to the wall but between them is open space.

There are many ways to find the optimum placement. The first one try re-positioning them in small increments within the possible position space you have. Secondly, try some room treatment, simply bookshelves or carpets, etc or even bass traps. Thirdly you could measure the frequency responses with a microphone and some software/apps and adjust through DSP controlled hardware, either in the amp or in active speakers.

 

In general I aim for an equilateral triangle set up if it's a stereo system. Speakers toed-in to the listener - sometimes direct at the listening position; sometimes not.

That tends to favour a sweet spot. For a more "sharing" arrangement I decrease the toe-in.

In a couple of my stereo system I also use the Carver C-9 to give a greatly expanded soundstage - where I can control the layout in accordance with Carver's instructions on using the C-9 to maximum effect.

Of course, I greatly prefer native multichannel over everything else, and there the set-ups can vary even more.

Jeff

 

(this is with stereo speakers (2.0 or 2.1 setups))

"Good sound stage comes from behind the speakers. Really good sound stage is projected in front of the speaker."

I don't agree ... I have heard sound in front of the speakers, but that was with processing or happy accident with phase. MAYBE some speakers/rooms project an image in front of them as a usual thing, but not in my limited experience.

I get pretty good depth/space behind and even wider and taller than my speakers, which disappear as sound sources. No sound except if panned hard L or R seems to come from the speakers at all. Usually singer, bass, and drums form an image at various depths centered in and at least slightly behind the speaker plane.

A few recordings (Dishwalla, 'Opaline' opening synth (which comes from directly to my left, about 6' away)) have sounds that come from all over, even above or behind me. Roger Waters, Madonna, Sting, and others have used 'Q Sound' which is a phase manipulative process to get sounds outside the speaker boundaries. Games made for use with only 2 speakers also use this or a similar process IIUC.

I use a few recordings (Dido, Josh Groban, Lisa Loeb) with specific soundscapes ... when I hear things properly (or what I'm convinced is proper!) I know the setup and etc. is correct.

Lisa Loeb, 'Firecracker' title track has a faint distorted guitar solo that starts deep in the soundstage (behind the speakers). Then it 'whooshes' out to above and behind my left shoulder for a short while before whooshing back into the soundstage behind the speakers.

Roger Waters' solo albums (which I don't like the music for!) contain dog barking sounds that seem like they're coming from outside and down the street ... among other things.

 

"others have used 'Q Sound' which is a phase manipulative process to get sounds outside the speaker boundaries."

That's interesting. Can't imagine how that would sound.

 

Get the Roger Waters album 'Amused To Death' so you can hear it for yourself .
And like @Rick58 most of my soundstage happens behind my speakers in various layers of depth.

 

It took some years and a lot of faffing about but eventually I settled for the equilateral triangle, with head positioned so I can just see the inner side and the top of said speakers. This is in an average size UK room.

The distance from side and rear walls would depend on the model used.

 

Will put that on my wantlist!

 

I have a small room like you do (even smaller, actually). I normally have good staging in front of my speakers, and occasionally it’s extreme—like in my lap. The fact that it’s variable has everything to do with recording quality. The fact that it exists at all seems dependent on the accurate time alignment of drivers. Meaning, it wasn’t until I measured carefully and introduced individual channel delay that a large front-to-back stage opened up. But, that assumes a speaker system that’s amenable to these sorts of adjustments.

Overall, the general guidance I’ve received is that, the better time-aligned you are, the closer you can sit.

 

Every speaker is different. One very major difference with designs is the on- and off-axis response, and this has much to do with placement. Generally, the two speakers work like a lens that can be in tight focus or softer focus. You also have depth of field with a lens, and this is where boundary reflections come into play.

There are many formulaic approaches, but the basics are that your room will reinforce the sound and also have nulls. Obviously, prime positioning—dividing the room into a grid and taking note of odd and prime intersections—is going to negate a lot of harmonic or sympathetic reinforcement.

Getting sound to seem like it is coming from outside your room or speaker boundaries, is IMO, exactly what you are trying to do. A huge concert hall should sound like a huge concert hall and the timpani should sound like it is way back behind your speakers.

Once you get a nice big soundstage, you can work with imaging and focus. Keep the tweeters at ear level and aim them directly at your ears in seating position, now try focusing a foot behind your ears or even a foot or two in front of your ears. This can give you pinpoint imaging or softer imaging. That's your preference.

 

It's not the greatest musically IMHO (altho I LOVE PF and David Gilmour solo albums!). There are many interesting sound effects on there which are expressly created for effect.

The other examples are IMHO much better musically but maybe not as dramatic. The Dishwalla Opaline entrance to the title track only occurs for a few seconds but it startled me when I first heard it (like the Lisa Loeb I mentioned also).

The Josh Groban and Dido references don't happen in front of the speakers, but definitely between, behind, and above/outside the speakers ... lots of background stuff happens on Dido recordings (old ones anyway which is all I have). Life for Rent and No Angel ... she's not the greatest singer IMHO but co-writes good songs (and has a pleasant voice and is GOOD LOOKING) and her brother's production is excellent. Maybe a little 'sterile' for some tastes, as all of it is artificial I think.

Josh Groban recordings (Awake, "In Her Eyes" cut in particular) has a percussion/synth opening that starts to the left, goes in an arc back and across, ending up near/at the right speaker. It all happens in a few seconds but to me it helps 'set' the soundstage ... if it sounds like a horseshoe across/back into the soundstage, then things are set up and adjusted correctly. There's a lot of nice ambient background sounds on this recording (and the Dido, and Lisa Loeb, and etc.) that help enhance the listening experience. These are all artificial, I think (altho the parts may have been recorded in a large room?) ... there's of course choral/orchestral recordings that reveal the location of the recording, those are especially nice. Can't think of one offhand that I have though! So maybe that shows where my usual listening falls.

 

I think there is a mix of soundstage and imaging being discussed here, but in my mind they are closely related.

I try to bring my speakers as far out into the room as possible while still maintaining bass. The room itself plays a huge role in soundstage & imaging (reflective surfaces are the enemy), but these are also very recording dependent.

A few albums/tracks I feel are great to evaluate both:

Alan Parsons Project, I Robot (Any vinyl version will do!). Crank up "The Voice." If you are not experiencing a variety of instrunents and vocal layers positioned distinctly in space across a massive 3-D soundstage (like 15 full feet in front of the speakers), something is very wrong with your system.

Massive Attack, Mezzanine (the first track "Angel" is great for both imaging and bass coherence.) The percussion should be placed a couple feet behind the speakers.

Neil Young, Harvest. Listen to those drums and bass on "Out on the Weekend." Drums should be centered a little behind the speakers and bass out front to the left a little (if I recall). Having grown up with a lot of very crappy equipment, this was the first song where I heard the "stereo effect." This album should also give you a huge wide soundstage.

 

Thanks for the tips! I have I Robot on vinyl, but it's waiting for me in ID to set things up (gives me more incentive to do so!). I know I haven't played that in a long time, but don't recall things being in FRONT of the speakers ...

I don't have Harvest, that's certainly one I will get. Will have to check out Massive Attack, never have heard their stuff.

 

Get Amused To Death!!! It's a bit dated, but a fantastic album, one of my favorites even without the Q sound effects.

As for the original question. I have my speakers a full 6 feet into the room with plenty of room on the sides. I sit 8 or 9 feet from the speakers and have a very deep soundstage, depending on the recording. Here's an excellent thread on the subject:
In Search of Soundstage Depth...

 

I triangulated my speakers - and I sit just inside the point of the Triangle. Both sit on top of isolation forms - such that the tweeter is on level with my ears.
I love the imaging I'm hearing. Makes it very easy to mix. In the 5.1 suite the triangulation is a bit wider up front and behind.

 

A great type of recording for soundstage is a recording that includes live open spaces in the mix. Tap dancing on a stage in a theatre, found sound of weather like thunderstorms, rustic drums recorded outside. I have heard all these in studio mixes and they always immediately explode the space of the recording. The right live recording, like small club jazz.

 

If you haven't seen it already you should check out Steve's thread about The Kink's Waterloo Sunset. The background vocals on that song are out of phase. When my speakers are positioned just right it seems as if they are singing from imaginary hidden speakers in the left and right walls nearly opposite my shoulders. Pretty incredible...
SH Spotlight - Play the Kinks "Waterloo Sunset" in stereo, check and fix or improve your stereo playback with it!

However, I don't think I've ever heard a soundstage in front of my speakers. For most records it's across the back wall, way behind them, stretching from the left to right corner.

 

I listened to the Lisa Loeb track and had the guitar swirling around my right shoulder. Got up and checked the cables from my dac to amp. Yep, they were reversed.

 

Front-ported floorstanders at 1 foot from the front wall for nice bottom-end reinforcement, and a sitting at position 1.5 times the distance between speakers, or more, for I don't like too wide a stereo soundscape. I have all the soundstage I need for the styles of music I'm into.

 

LOL !!! so I'm not the only one that hears it this way - (well, not reversed) - good to know! and glad things are correct now!

 

I use this album to test speaker placement. The beginning of “Late Hone Tonight” has a water drip. The first doesn’t start behind the left ear, but by the third drop, it is firmly there. If it isn’t, I work on my toe in and distance from the wall. On the same track, the second time the pilot’s radio comes in, the right channel is very diffuse. Really cool.

listening to the Eurythmics yesterday, I noticed they were experimenting with phase as well. Try out “Like a Ball and Chain” off Be Yourself Tonight. It starts swirling around you at 2:49 in the song. I am not sure if all pressings do it, but my early US RCA CD does it.

 

Snare on Out on the Weekend is a bit left center for me (behind the speakers). Amazing snare sound though.

 

Here is an interesting experiment: listen to Jennifer Warnes - “Bird On a Wire” and listen if your imaging matches the info graphic on this page.

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