"Better Records" website and their business practices as they apply to our hobby*

Sorry...didn't see your post before but that looks like the one!

 

white label promos > hot stampers!!

 

Not neccessarily. Many wlp sound crappy. a lot of them arent first pressings.

 

when would they not be a 1st?

 

Thanks for posting. (I'm not going to address Better Records, but your comments and quote from Bob Ludwig): it doesn't surprise me that the sides not marked or inscribed by LH are essentially the same cut, as you've described, for early US copies of LZII. I guess that still leaves some questions in my mind (I don't sell, so I'm not arguing the point out of self-interest in lucre, but raise this more out of intellectual curiosity):
1. Even among the "RL" inscribed copies (both sides) there are so-called narrow deadwax side 2 iterations- presuming that more space occupied by the grooves means more information was cut into the record.
2. I suspect- and please help me out here-- that there are copy to copy variations of different cuttings taken from the same master tape, using the same notes. In this respect, and I may be playing the village idiot here, I've never really understood how multiple acetates are treated as the same mastering even if by the same engineer at roughly the same time period and facility. Just how the cutting head is aligned, or how the cutting stylus itself is aligned when replaced, would presumably make a difference, would it not? (I know we are speaking in small degrees, but a good example is all the attention paid in the last few years to SRA on playback, involving measurements, microscopes and the like- I set it by ear on playback, but I'm a troglodyte). I know this sounds like I'm supporting the Better Records view of copy to copy variations but leaving Tom Port to one side, what's your take on the reality in cutting multiple acetates for a big selling record? How can they be the "same"?
3. Going beyond the LZII example, there are instances where different stampers are employed for different sides, so an 'RL' on one side doesn't mean the flip side is the same mastering- I'm thinking here of examples like Capricorn pinks of Allmans Live at the Fillmore- one copy to hand has some sides by Piros and others by Dennis King. Largely out of curiosity, if not obsessiveness, I tried to find a copy of Steely Dan's Greatest Hits that had all four sides by "RL"-- out of a dozen or so copies, I found only one so inscribed. Does that mean that the sides not so inscribed --some sides had no mastering engineer initials at all--were also cut by RL, someone following the same notes from the same tape, etc? How do we know? I think that's where folks cling to the inscription information. (In the case of the Steely Dan double album, all those copies cost me very little-the real killer for a lot of these older copies is condition, including warps).
4. I "get" the obsessiveness. It is refreshing to get insight that says "You folks are getting all squirrelly about nothing," particularly if people are paying a premium for no good reason other than an artifact that may, in the end, mean nothing.
BTW, it looks like you are new to the board, and if that is the case, a hearty welcome.

 

As far as white label promos being 'hot stampers' my experience is they do, generally, sound great. But they have to be the bona fide or original pressings. For the most part, the majority (95% or so) I've had or looked at are from the same sources as that used for the initial retail pressings. Also, most white labels are from the initial / early runs off the stampers, so all things being equal, they should rival the best standard pressings sound-wise . And that has been my experience. Some labels released white label promos well after the album was released. Whether these are great sounding depends on a lot of things. For example when Jim Croce's ABC/Dunhill catalog was picked up by Lifesong the titles were re-released as white label promos. There, I prefer the sound of the original ABC's.

What Port does is compare records of a particular title and hype the one he thinks sounds best. You're basically paying for his ear and commentary. Whether a particular white label promo or hot stamper sounds the best to you is of course going to be subjective (much of our SQ conclusions here are too!)

 

Wurd!

 

While its true that every single lacquer / acetate cutting is going to be 'unique' - just as every single pressing is 'unique' and therefore not the same - the term mastering refers to intentional deliberate choices made by the responsible engineers. When multiple masters were being made by larger labels I've read (here and other places) that specific instructions would be given so that different engineers on different days and at different places would be producing a consistent product.

 

In theory this should be true - especially if the same mastering house was being used (Sterling/Masterdisk, etc.), but in practice I find it hit and miss, maybe even title specific.
But that's just my take on it.

 

Consistent mastering would be different from variations occurring from factors in the production chain; cutting tool wear, stamper wear, the quantity of vinyl in the puck, etc.

 

True that....but in the case of Masterdisk (to name one) with the talent that they had....well I find differences that those factors do not cover (IMO). These were top tier engineers that may have thought that some adjustments to the notes might be an improvement? Although as a general rule I find that RL and HW cuts are close...in most cases.

 

It's not just Port providing the ear work. He's got a staff of people evaluating records too. Not sure how that all "works out" and if everyone there all gets on the same page, let alone the same book.

 

Many times. Have to do the homework. Cant just say "Ohh look wlp!" and think its a first pressing.

 

Oh wow. But it makes sense given the sheer volume of 'comparisons' vis-a-vis the available hours in a day and one set of ears.

 

Indeed.

My point exactly.

 

Put some nice background music on like the twilight zone or something then....
Google:
tom port steve hoffman forum
humorem steve hoffman forum
etc.
have fun

 

Thank you! All I can say in this regard is that in the case of the LZII, all of the initial pressings with RL on them were mastered by Sterling, even with little or no dead wax info to that regard. It was their job at that point and down the road, I don't know how Atlantic handled this, PERHAPS they might play mix-and-match with lacquer discs for the stampers… in this case, Sterling was the only firm on the job, tasked with the responsibility of getting all the lacquers as needed in the beginning. When Ahmet stepped in and ordered a remaster, they did so without the full consent and direction of Sterling, but as Bob pointed out, used their master that they had designed to be used for "CASSETTE DUPLICATION" which means 8-tracks and possibly early compact-cassettes, in which case would have a far inferior and compressed overall quality compared to ANY Lp master before or since for LZII… so in the course of a few weeks, you could get your hands on one of the best sounding Lp's LZ ever released and conversely one of the WORST sounding LP's… BOTH being LZII! Later pressings reverted to a different master, but the damage had been done at that point, and the first hot master was never offered up again, the lacquers being discarded and never used again. In OTHER cases, I would think that and not just from what I think, but what I've heard and seen, that at LEAST during the first press runs, that it would be very very unusual to find a record with two different masters from two different mastering labs on it. Another example I've found like this is "The Stranger" -Billy Joel. The VAST majority are Sterling mastered, After Bob Ludwig had left, and a smaller number of them were from MASTERDISC with RL's initials on that one. I have in my possession here, about 50 copies of "The Stranger", from all different press runs. I found out of that 50, that 40 were from Sterling, about 4 were from Masterdisk and about 6 were from what appears to be some generic in-house mastering at Columbia, the latter being the newest reissue version, with gapingly large dead wax compared to the other two. I never encountered in ANY of these any COMBINATIONS of two different mastering companies on a single disc. It would seem at least by my observations, that typically a company will, whether for the benefit of CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS or the sake of CONTINUITY, that they wouldn't in good faith mix up two different companies masters on any one release. Not to say that it's never happened! LOL…. so that's my best ambiguously worded guess!

 

Yes, popular records will have several editions of promo copies. OFTEN the white label promos ARE the first pressings… Typically this is true, because the practice of a lot of labels is to send the white label off first as promos, and typically these are the first of the first press run. That being said, later on, there may be further demand because of worn or missing copies, so other promo designations were used, often STOCK pressings with a sticker or GOLD STAMP (or a rubber stamp), a HOLE PUNCH or other promo markings… white label 45's have typically ALWAYS been first pressings, first press runs, because of the timely nature of 45's introductions, how well they do in the charts, etc. but AGAIN, many 45's from companies like Columbia, will have VINYL promo copies and STYRENE stock copies. The VINYL versions are nearly invariably from first press runs, but ones that are apparently STOCK PRESSINGS with a rubber promo stamp are JUST THAT with no likelihood of being first pressings. At some point CBS gave up altogether on WLP LP's and just stamped the back of the covers with a gold stamp and usually a deletion mark… these are even harder to suss out, as they are all stock pressings, that may have come from any stage of the press run. Also many companies never had WLP's but still had custom LP label designations, which can be considered the same as WLP's, as logic would dictate that promo's were never one-off's when custom labels were used… since they had to load the labels manually and press some numbers of them, I would ASSUME that even if they weren't first pressings, they nearly were always at the front of the press run, with fresh stampers, something that seems to be consistent with many of the major label's company policies. Get the first ones out as promos, to ensure the best sound quality and have them go to work for you, and finish the rest of the press run with stock pressings once the labels were changed over.

 

Good info and appreciated. But, man, paragraphing is free here at SHF.

 

Back "then" he wasnt selling albums for hundreds of dollars. And also, back then, he actually had some good thoughts on pressings. Did it get heated? Yeah, sometimes. Tom still has some good thoughts on what to look for when purchasing an lp. Its all the other used car salesman junk that is ridiculous.

 

I agree that some white label promos might disappoint in the audio department.

However, in my experience, over 80% of US white label promo LPs I've seen from the 1950s to 1980s had the same mastering as day of release standard copies. WLP's of later pressings certainly exist, but I have not found them to be especially common.

 

Yeah, I go blind trying to read his posts. He does have some good thoughts though.

 

Right, once he started getting big bucks for his "hot" pressings he has become disingenuous about all new releases.

 

In regards to what I have placed in bold and assuming that you speak of not just one label:
To meet demand, it appears they would use whatever was available. Case in point, I own a pressing of BTO's Not Fragile. One side is Kendun stamped, the other Masterdisk. Skyline labeled 1st issue.
I assume that Kendun's are the initial cuts as that is mentioned in the liner notes. Maybe Kendun couldn't supply new stampers in a timely matter, so the label contracted out to Masterdisk? I dunno'.
And on some US pressings you could find masterings from different countries on one disc (Yes' Fragile & PF's Wish You Were Here come to mind).
On US releases, seems anything was possible?

 

...and old ones.