Beware of the Poly lined paper inner sleeve....

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Mondayschild, Oct 20, 2013.

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  1. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter

    I'm not passing judgement either way, but I do have one or two LP's that have had this probelm.
    It's worth bearing in mind if you have those valuable raers housed in Poly lined paper inner sleeves..


    "Entirely separately, I had become concerned about the soft polythene-lined inner sleeves that were commonplace in the mid-60s to very early 70s – the period where the most expensive collectors’ items were issued. These sleeves sometimes leave a wavy pattern on the disc which, if you catch it quickly enough, can be wiped off with no negative impact but if left, becomes impossible to shift. It doesn’t affect the playability of the LP in most cases and I have heard it can sometimes be removed with repeated trips through a cleaning machine, but I have doubts. It seems to affect Mint records left unplayed, so readers stashing swirl Vertigos and Deram LPs as investments would be advised to change the inners or the investment may go sour. Not playing the LP and packing it tightly may be exacerbating factors.
    As for “fogging”, where the LP’s surface is milky, I have encountered this only with soft polythene sleeves, particularly on blue Liberty labels, red Polydor and red and plum Atlantics. It appears something went wrong at the outset as they are normally perfect. This “fog” does cause surface noise and the records look horrible. There is no known cure.
    Regarding “bag rash”, my understanding is that the vinyl has areas where it looks “pitted”, but is smooth to the touch and does not affect play; I have encountered this mostly on early- to mid-60s LPs in the “greaseproof paper” sleeves or CBS LPs in those shiny paper sleeves with LP ads on them.
    Perhaps these problems are caused by age. The most collectible records are more than 40 years old and weren’t designed to last that long, but maybe hard PVC outers and soft poly inners slash their lifespan. I now use the “onion paper”-lined inners available from RC’s ads and I am reasonably confident in them. They started to be used by Decca in 1974/5 for example and I’ve never found an issue with an LP stored in one. But I have a nagging feeling that, despite a risk of scuffs, I’d be better off with plain acid-free paper sleeves. Jon Groocock, by email"

    From http://recordcollectormag.com/letters/ruined-vinyl-the-sequels
     
  2. Alan2

    Alan2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Soft poly inners are unusual now, and I know what you mean about the marking, particularly the ripple effect. I used to think they were safe, and had a few LPs i some, but don't use them now. Lik e you, I go for the 'onion skin'lined inners.
     
  3. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter

    I'm even wary of using those now!
    I use soft plain paper inners with no poly lining at all now.
     
  4. Wally Swift

    Wally Swift Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn New York
    I bought a 12 LP box set that came out around 1966 and each disc was mint/unplayed but had been stored in these plastic sleeves which were then kept inside these heavy paper sleeves that were mounted into a large binder/cover. The records all had that wavy pattern you mentioned and initially I was very disturbed. However every LP cleaned up perfectly with no traces of the residue and all the records play dead quiet.
     
  5. HiFi Guy 008

    HiFi Guy 008 Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    I have some of those affected. I found a record cleaning machine eliminated them completely.
     
  6. 5-String

    5-String Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sunshine State
    I 've seen this wavy pattern left behind by the inner sleeve in used records that I buy. I also found that it cleans completely after a good cleaning with the VPI.
     
  7. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Some of the old Columbia had round-bottom poly sleeves with a perf zip. I have picked up some of these where the poly goes soft and sticks to the records. Some clean up, but some do not. I always get that stuff away from the records.
     
  8. oxenholme

    oxenholme High Quality Posts™ a speciality

    I have several LPs affected by this, but it's a bit of a poser for me as the poly lined sleeves with red printing for mono and blue printing for stereo are very much part of it for me - almost as much as the "Laminated with 'Clarifoil' made by British Celanese Limited" on the outer.
     
  9. hvbias

    hvbias Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast
    IMO the material used in those vintage poly sleeves is different from the majority of the modern poly sleeves I have seen (Sleeve City, Mofi, QRP, Bags Unlimited). Those vintage ones have a stretchy property. The modern ones are more like a stiffer plastic. But time will tell how the modern ones hold up with age. Personally I still prefer them to paper. I always replace the vintage Vertigo, Decca, Columbia poly sleeves with new ones after cleaning the LP.
     
  10. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I've been using the rice paper sleeves from Chadster, and also bought a small quantity of 'rice paper type' from Bags Unlimited to try.
    Most of my collector LPs had inners replaced back when with older Analogue Productions liners, that I have since been replacing with the newer rice paper lined ones as I go through the collection, re-clean and play.
    I recently got a Cisco Aja sealed that had the 'white fog' on both sides- cleaning- both with a VPI and the Audio Desk did not remove it, but it didn't affect play (though some folks found that it did).
    Of course, I keep the inner liners for completeness sake.
     
  11. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter


    I had a few Deram originals with the problem and some of the old Decca poly lined sleeves with the red/blue mono/stereo thing as well, my Vertigo and other label inners seem to be OK.
    One or two of the Decca ones had really bad 'bloom' on them and wouldn't clean off no matter how hard I tried.
    I suppose the answer would be to keep the inner sleeves but transfer the vinyl to another non Poly inner as Bill Hart said.
    Trouble is when you have 10,000 plus like I have it's a real chore to go through and change them with the alternative
    that if you don't you run the risk of getting some kind of damage to the vinyl be it just visual or more serious!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2013
  12. hvbias

    hvbias Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast
    I think this might be a result of the pressing machines. I've seen it on some older RTI pressed vinyl.

    edit: I've also seen it on black Classic Records vinyl like Aqualung, Lamb Lies Down On Broadway
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  13. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter

    Yeah, pressing defects are a bit different.
    The decca LP I mentioned above, the inner plastic layer which was very thin was also almost adhered completely to the vinyl and I had to peel it off
    like an onion skin!
     
  14. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    Brooklyn
    I Always use plain paper sleeves ONLY. I get 100 for like $15 online. The plastic lines sleeves are trouble waiting to happen, I'd never use them.
     
  15. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter

    I'm with you!
     
  16. Sid Hartha

    Sid Hartha Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The Midwest
    The only times I've experienced this was with UK Decca vinyl as well. It's almost as if the poly lining had begun to fuse with the vinyl.

    This phenomena is real, but I don't think it's as common as some say. I used hundreds of poly sleeves in the '70s and never found any problems with them over the years.
     
  17. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter

    You're right, it doesn't happen often but it does happen. When I realized that I have a large number of rare records like the Zombies Oddessy And Oracle original mono and stereo first pressings and the like in these kind of sleeves
    I started to panic!
     
  18. McLover

    McLover Forum Resident

    Location:
    East TN
    UK Decca and London vinyl are the worst offenders here. RCA poly-lined inners are also known for this.
     
  19. Sid Hartha

    Sid Hartha Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The Midwest
    Yeah. Whenever I acquire used UK Decca or Philips pressings, those sleeves are summarily discarded as a rule. There definitely was something freaky about the material they used.

    Truth is, I rarely keep the sleeves that come with used vinyl as a general rule. It's probably my OCD, but the idea of some stranger's fingers handling that... yuk.
     
  20. Mondayschild

    Mondayschild Guest Thread Starter

    Oh I don't get rid of original sleeves, I'll keep them with the record but behind the rear of the cover in a thin poly record cover, collectors these days want original inner sleeevs
    and all sorts, right down to knowing which Parlophone and Harvest paper inners come from which year etc,
    I just remove the record, new inner sleeve, but keep the old one, just in case.......
     
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  21. hvbias

    hvbias Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northeast
    Plus you can sometimes date the pressing down to the month/year on some UK inner sleeves. I never discard them.
     
  22. ElizabethH

    ElizabethH Forum Resident

    Location:
    SE Wisconsin,USA
    I have no problem with polylined sleeves. Wayyyy back when I was a teen (60's) i would have Lps from Columbia with that soort of marking on them. In the past dozen years and thousands of Lps used and new, i have not seen it on any LPs.
    I switch ALL my Lps into polylined sleeves..
    IMO the issue is one of humidity, putting away a LP while it has moisture on it, into a soft plastic sleeve.
     
    hvbias likes this.
  23. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I think these sleeves are some other sort of plastic.
     
  24. vinylman

    vinylman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds, U.K.
    It's known among collectors and dealers as 'bag rash'.
     
  25. Sid Hartha

    Sid Hartha Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The Midwest
    I know what you mean, but I never bother with that. Too much fuss. I throw the old inner sleeves out.
     
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