I can usually tell, but in this case it's a bit more difficult, since the original recording isn't particularly spectacular to start with (From everything I'm reading, it sounds just like the widely circulated bootleg, just with some extra EQ/compression?). But also I think it's more the principal of the thing, seeing as how people actually paid money for it.
The discussion of the lossy-sourced Asbury Park starts here: Black Sabbath Sabotage 2021 digital On the next page, you can see several screenshots along with explanations. Thanks for your thorough comparison. Since we don't know the source of the ROIO CDR you have, I cannot really comment on it; it might be lossy too (like several of the commercial bootlegs of this show are, including the ones that some way or other are the source of the official release), and/or it might be remastered in some way or other, or it might be the lossless alleged master reel > CDR. Feel free to PM me if you would like to figure it out. I doubt I know anyone who could tell by listening whether an LP is lossy-sourced or not, unless the lossy source had been encoded at a ridiculously low bitrate (which isn't the case here). The vinyl noise will conceal any potentially audible characteristics of the lossy codec. And the more fundamental problem in this case is not that they used a lossy source, but that they used a bootleg source rather than tapes. Plus, at least in case of the CD version, the way they EQed it made it worse (IMO, of course). Btw, you mentioned the mix several times. The mix of all the complete bootlegs of this show, including the one(s) this official released is sourced from, is identical. Only incomplete broadcast or pre-broadcast versions use a different mix.
I compared multiple digital releases of Sabotage, including this new one, the 2009 Pearce and the original WB, here: Black Sabbath Sabotage 2021 digital
Yes I do refer to a different mix and that's because it really has the EQ differences I mention which had to be some type of EQ shaping...technically a mix of the two track master or more of a sweetening and shaping process and obviously not a multitrack mix. I probably should have made that distinction in my language when referring to the different mix as I described it. As I explained I don't know what source my CDR is from and I wondered if it is from a radio broadcast mix or another source not commonly used? And in the mastering process for analog press it would have also underwent some EQ shaping for that as well. Anyway I tried to give everyone at least some idea of what I was hearing and at least one comparison, but that comparison may not be that helpful not knowing much about the CDR source. Thanks for your very informative response.
I have to say that if getting the best deal price-wise on most releases - especially high priced import box sets - ImportCDs is great. DeepDiscount can save you some bucks as well on all kinds of stuff. And they both offer additional $ saving coupons. DD even has free shipping (for over $25 orders now). I have ordered hundreds if not thousands or items from those vendors, spending a ton of ca$h over the years. I even ordered from each back in the days b4 they got swallowed up by Alliance Entertainment or Super-D or whatever their name is. I think they have spiraled downwards after that. On the one hand they are great for saving money and being able to afford more music! On the other hand their customer service is utterly atrocious and if something goes wrong then be prepared to have to fight to make it right, dragging them kicking and screaming in the right direction through their numerous time wasting hassles & misdirections along the way - many due to their own incompetence and others perhaps done purposely to rip you off (once when I had to return something to DD using one of their pre-paid mailer labels yet did not get a refund after 2 months and I called to discuss they actually told me that they never received it back; luckily I had a friend who worked in the post office who put free delivery confirmation on it for me so I could tell I could see that they DID get it back, which only when I pointed that out to the rep did they refund my money). So use these vendors with caution. 99% of the time should be no problem. But the other 1% will drive you crazy...
I think the CD remaster of the main album is great. I love my "Black Sabbath Sludge" but there's so much clarity and separation in this 2021 remaster that I know I'm going to play this one over my original Warner Bros. CD. It sounds like a sheet has been taken off the speakers. And "Blow On A Jug" is left intact at the ending!
I agree, there is some interesting detail and the recording sounds different, this is why i like some remasters its not that its better than the original release its just a different perspective, so for such a classic record its worth hearing.
I escaped in 5 minutes. That was fun. Shame it must've taken longer putting the game together than curating the materials for the box.
Thanks again. If your Asbury Park ROIO CDR was sourced from a different transfer or even a different mix than all the other copies in circulation, chances are you would know it, and you would likely not talk about it on an internet forum. It's easy: if your Asbury Park ROIO CDR runs significantly longer than 30 minutes and doesn't include any duplicate parts, it originates, some way or other, from the same tape transfer (and thus contains the same mix) as all the complete (~100 min) or at least 1xCD-length copies all over the internet and most commercial bootlegs, including "Heaven and Earth" (lossy-sourced), "Behind the Wall of Spock" (lossy-sourced), "Accidental Overdose" (lossy-sourced), the Reel To Reel (Master) > CDR(2) > EAC > WAV > FLAC(8) (lossless) version, the JWB remaster (lossless), the thir13en remaster (lossless but compressed), the MP3 version on Wolfgang's Vault, and the official Sabotage Super Deluxe discs (lossy-sourced). If your CDR runs ~30 min or less, it is very likely sourced from an FM broadcast or, less likely, from pre-FM tape or vinyl. The broadcast copies I have heard seem to use a different mix than the complete recording, as on the broadcast recordings the siren can be heard in War Pigs while the siren is almost entirely inaudible on the complete version.
I guess that's why a few in the other thread about this release are saying that they don't even care if the live discs are sourced from MP3, they think they sound fine. I'm glad my ears work.
Yep. Most of my friends don't care at all and even don't know (or care) what a mastering is (and I fully respect that). Thing is, those people just listen to Spotify or Youtube or MP3 (which is what I would do if I felt the same). When I pay anything close to the kind of money they are asking for these SDE releases (CD or vinyl,) I expect to get something that is better than some old bootleg, let alone an MP3-sourced one.
Anyone would be much more likely to hear the swirling, "whooshy" hallmarks of a lossy source if it were the studio record. A 45 year-old live recording would be more difficult
Agreed. These sets are specifically targeted to the more old-fashioned, OCD collectors who you would assume expect the best for their money. It's baffling.
I don't have any problem with a band taking a bootleg and releasing it officially, claiming whatever revenue comes with it. I've seen many cases of other bands doing it, and I've bought my share of those. But at least they tell you upfront, you know what you're getting. Selling a lossy-sourced boot as the main bait on an expensive release without proper info is what rankles.
Exactly. Even if my addled ears could not tell it was lossy sourced, even if I did not already own a decent sounding FREE bootleg of the live show for years already, even if I didn't already own like three versions of this album on CD now (after having owned at least 2 others which I no longer have like my original LP or first CD issue), I don't want to financially support a botched release like this. I'm glad now that my order for this got canceled by ImportCDs. Originally I was psssed off that they canceled it but now feel like thanking them...
Exactly! My favorite live box set is UFO's Official Bootleg Box. It's so much better than anything that Sabbath have compiled on any of their "Deluxe" and "Super Deluxe" sets. Sigh.
I don’t have a problem with it when that’s all that exists. It’s a matter of whether Wolfgang’s vault wouldn’t license the master tape or whether sabbath never even tried and just took the cheap and easy way.
Just heard about this on the radio. Adds a new level of strange to this release: Play Black Sabbath's 'Sabotage Deluxe Edition: Panic Room' (loudwire.com) EDIT: For what it's worth, I finished the game in less than 5 minutes.
