Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by BlueJay, Jul 22, 2017.
Yes, I noticed that also.
Looks very unofficial
Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad re sound quality...
I took your advice! My follow-up (in italics) received an answer (in bold):
The recently unearthed Allen Ginsberg tapes of Bob Dylan and the Hawks live in San Francisco (12/11/65) and San Jose (12/12/65) seem to have rewritten history, since they’ve shown that the bootleg of the Dec. 4 Berkeley concert (titled Long Distance Operator) is actually a recording of the San Jose show. No recording of the actual Berkeley concert, which you had the great fortune to attend, is known to exist.
Does it feel strange knowing that you had been listening to an imposter for several decades? One that seemed to represent your memories of a great show but actually did not? And do you worry that your memories of the Berkeley show have been influenced over time by the San Jose recording?
Two further questions: you’ve described the rediscovered San Francisco show as “fierce, physical, like a riot where the tension only builds and is never released.” Do you think it’s a greater concert than the Berkeley one? And in light of Dylan’s cryptic comments about a “new drummer,” who do you think was behind the kit in San Francisco?
Bobby Gregg, the drummer on Highway 61 Revisited, was the drummer for those shows. What we now know is the San Jose show was not different from the Berkeley show in any way I can remember or reconstruct. (I wonder if it was bootlegged as from Berkeley because Berkeley seemed cooler, i.e., more salable, than San Jose.) I was utterly swept away—the term is much too mild—more like taken into another dimension—by the performance with the Hawks of “It Ain’t Me Babe,” and the bootleg let me understand why. The San Francisco show was different in kind.
Yes, I noticed! A good attempt to extract worthwhile comments, which I was unable to do previously.
We know, without question, that Bobby Gregg was the drummer at Berkeley; the photograph on "Long Distance Operator" is definitely from Berkeley and Bobby is clearly identifiable on the drum stool in that photo. But the conversation between Dylan and Ginsberg (who attended at least one of the Berkeley shows) before the San Francisco show indicates strongly that a drummer other than Gregg was in the band on 11 December and probably the following night too, though that is not certain.
Where did you find Greil's remarks about the San Francisco show, by the way?
Heylin had some, er, "provocative" thoughts in the most recent issue of ISIS about the online analysis that's been offered about the Ginsberg Tapes. I'll transcribe them tomorrow, so long as it's understood that I'm not trolling the thread. PS: I think he's dead wrong.
Oh! I'd be very interested to see those...
You'll see them.
They're from the September installment of Real Life Rock Top 10, which was temporarily lost in the Village Voice's switch to digital-only format. I agree with you about the San Francisco show having a different drummer than Gregg. Whoever was behind the kit in San Francisco seems to have a more dramatic sense of timing, at least in comparison to Gregg in San Jose.
As promised yesterday, here is an extract from Derek Barker's interview with Clinton Heylin in issue #194 of ISIS.
Q: Right, that brings us on nicely to my next question which has nothing to do with the book but has to do with Ginsberg. What do you think about the emergence of '65 Masonic Memorial Temple and Civic Auditorium Ginsberg tapes? I ask the question because last time we spoke--- in the interview for your "Judas!" book--- we talked about the historic confusion over Chicago and Boston '65. Interestingly, the two new Ginsberg tapes from the tour both contain performances of 'Long Distance Operator'.
Clinton Heylin: Yeah, Yeah, and why wouldn't they? Obviously, I'd heard at least one of those tapes in it's entirety when I was doing "Judas!" and I allude to it. I haven't followed the argument online, but I'm sure that someone has done a comparison and they think they have come up with an answer but we should be very wary of it because they are making an assumption. I'm not saying one way or the other but I wouldn't assume that something is definitely San José thus proving Berkeley is not Berkeley rather than assuming that San José is in fact Berkeley.
It is quite clear from the backstage conversation that Allen has literally just gotten the recording equipment. I'd talked to Allen extensively about these tapes. He told me about them years ago and told me he had lost them. At that point I had the Berkeley recording. I don't know if it was circulating or not, but it was obvious it was his tape and we talked about it and he told me it was Berkeley. We know he was at Berkeley, that's indisputable. It would be very odd if he went to both Berkeley shows, which he did, and then didn't bother to record anything until the 11th of December. It's quite clear from Dylan's comments about the drummer that the conversation is taking place as the tour is starting and I think that's because it's in Berkeley. I'm just very wary about people making these snap judgements online.
Which is ironic. As I understand it, and this is purely as I understand it, the Dylan office did the honorable thing, because technically Stanford own those tapes, and Dylan's office wanted include those two recordings on the "50th Anniversary Collection", but they didn't have the clearance from Stanford to do it. Now, if that had been me, I would have just gone ahead and included them, because there is no way Stanford can claim copyright on those recordings.
Q: Sure, they own the actual tapes but not the recordings.
CH: Yeah, that's exactly right. So they have put into the public domain something that they don't own the copyright to. Shameful. I'd heard them and I pushed them to put those recordings on the Copyright Set. I can't remember the exact conversation, but I was told they weren't putting them on there because because they felt they had to clear it with Stanford. Stanford had sent CDrs to Dylan's office.
That'll learn all you people not to make "snap judgements"!
He lost me at "I haven't followed the argument online, but..."
There's a detail in the interview I'm wondering if folks will react to.
Oh dear, Clinton.
“In the universe there are things that are known and things that are unknown and in between there are doors.”
SPECIAL UNRELATED ANNOUNCEMENT:-
After many months without a home "Electric Dylan" is back!
The format is much the same but Roger has made revisions to all the sections and, perhaps best of all for those who do not subscribe to ISIS magazine, he has included his six part forensic examination of "The Cutting Edge Collector's Edition" in the original PDF format! Even better, he has added "sticky note" revisions to those articles. (It is best to download the articles, because the digital "sticky notes" don't work too well on screen; the latest two, dealing with the BS7 sampler snippets, are a bit wonky on the downloads as well, but I expect Roger will get them sorted out before long.)
The whole thing remains a work-in-progress, but the site itself has been smoke-tested over the last month or so. All the links work on PC and on mobile devices. As always, Roger welcomes comments and corrections. He's not immune to praise, either!
Time to crack open Big Blue again!
Late to the party. What the heck was up with that audience? The reaction to a lot of the acoustic set sounds like a comedy club.
Allen Ginsberg was on stage in a clown wig acting-out all the lyrics. It's a shame they didn't keep up the routine for the 1966 tour, that Pennebaker footage would've really been a trip
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