Burning-in vs. brainwashing?

Perspective is one of the hardest things to get in life. It isn't just limited to audio.

Back when I was in retail, I always liked walking into my store after a vacation. For a few brief minutes, I saw it with fresh eyes, wondering why certain displays were where they were. What went unnoticed when viewed daily all of a sudden looked out of place.

I have the same experience with my stereo. When I first listen to it after a week away, I hear it with fresh ears, discovering aspects to my hi-fi I didn't appreciate before.

But it isn't a reset, a step back to point zero, when my stereo was brand new. Instead, after some time off, I hear more clearly how my stereo really sounds. My biases and previous experiences have at least partially fallen away and I can hear past them. I discover core truths about the sound of my stereo. I hear how well - or how poorly - it actually plays.

If burn-in, and its first cousin, the mechanical break-in of components like phono cartridges and speakers, wasn't real, what I'd get would be a full reset, back to when my stereo didn't sound right. The sound would be constricted, less dynamic, with poor bass response and an edgy high end. When I set-up a new stereo, it always sounds that way. With time, its sound relaxes and becomes fuller, more natural. My stereo becomes more real sounding.

Instead, coming home after a vacation, when I turn on my stereo for the first time, I get a new point of view, a fresh perspective. It isn't starting at nothing and having to re-acclimate myself to how the stereo sounds. That's what would happen if burn-in was a learned phenomenon. Instead, I start from that point. The components have matured to adulthood, at the risk of anthropomorphizing them. I hear them anew, but not as new. That's a huge difference.

Burn-in is real.

 

For most suggested 'burn in' in audio we don´t know. That is if we mean changes in sound. So in reality Your guess would be just as good anybody elses. Maybe it´s a quantum thing, components are burning in and not burning in at the same time, and it´s a matter of probability.

The only 'burn in' I can tell for sure was with a digital player. When new it had some high frequency distortion coming from the DAC, after some time this just suddenly just went away. Maybe this also was some quantum artifact.

 

Im hoping the quantum thing is just a joke.

 

No I was joking, and not joking, at the same time.

 

Interesting to note that despite the OP’s polite request for actual data (i.e. references) to back up our assertions, no responders have (so far) complied. Very interesting indeed...

In god we trust - all others need data.

 

Probably because no one knows such data, probably because such data does not exist.
Id love to read a study if there was one however.

 

Same here. While my time with tubes hasn't been nearly as long as with speakers I've heard the changes with burn-in. Cables & DACs .. not so much. The maker of my DAC surprisingly states just 24 hours for the DAC to settle in, with the tube taking about 30 days. Refreshing considering what many manufactures state.

 

My belief is this: everything in the universe is in a constant state of change (substitute the word burn-in for change). We, and our equipment are on a downward spiral toward demise. How much of this is audible? That's the crux of the biscuit, I guess.

 

I bet the data exists but you'd have to be an engineer with an expertise in materials science to know it. Maybe there's one of those folks around here but I doubt it. I hope I'm wrong because, I, too, would love to know the science behind burn-in.

How about this for a real world, verifiable experience to show that burn-in is real: the charging of nicad batteries. Many people have found that nicads take a few charge/discharge cycles to really hold a full charge. Capacitors and batteries are related. Oversimplifying things no end, capacitors just get rid of the charge they hold immediately where batteries hold onto it for a long time. If a nicad battery takes time to burn-in, then why not a capacitor?

 

To take an extreme example, if you are used to a very bright and bass-light sound, a more balanced and full-range system will sound bass heavy. Until we get used to it. And vice versa; even a bright system can start to sound better as our brains compensate for the brightness. So the same sound will seem to change in character as we become accustomed to it.

This does not prove that "burn-in" meaning a measurable change in the sound does not occur; but the problem is that we are not equipped to tell the difference between what happens in our head, and what happens to the physical sound, without careful measurement and testing.

Tim

 

Very interesting thread. I believe 'burn in' to be real, my case in point is when I first used my Rega Fono MM Mk3 I was ready to return it to the dealer as the highs were fatiguing, I done a search on the forum and read that after a few hours this goes away and smooths out the highs. After approx 10 hours use ('burn in') this was the case hence my belief.

Or is it that I also fitted a new Rega Exact cart at the same time?

 

Although the term appears in the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) of the American Psychiatric Association[7]brainwashing is not accepted as scientific fact.[8]

7. American Psychiatric Association. DSM-5.

8. Usarski, Frank (6 December 2012). Cresswell, Jamie; Wilson, Bryan, eds. New Religious Movements: Challenge and Response. Routledge. p. 238. ISBN 9781134636969. "... there has been until now a lack of any convincing scientific evidence which can be applied in a generalised form to show that involvement in a New Religious Movement has any destructive consequences for the psyche of the individual concerned. ... The fact that, in all the ensuing years, no one has succeeded in verifying beyond reasonable doubt any of these claims, has however, never been regarded as a reason to exonerate the groups in any way. ... Thus, up to the time of writing, there has not been one single successful, legal conviction of the Scientology Church, even though this group has come to be regarded as the most dangerous of the new religious organisations. ... The fact that even long-term investigations have as yet failed to produce the desired results continues to be ignored."

 

I've heard components degrade over time (talking years here) as parts age, dust settles in, electronics drift out of spec, etc. Entropy. But for things to sound better over the course of a couple weeks? I haven't experienced that.

 

Im skeptical, but burn in is clearly real to me, for certain gear anyway. Where mechanical actions are done the components and materials do loosen with use. Capacitors dont have any easy reasoning behind them however and are the part Im still not convinced of. You dont need a clear reasoning for it though. A simple ABX blind test is enough for me.

 

I think the obvious problem youre missing here is if everything is changing then your ears / perception of music and gear is too. So you still dont know if its your gear or you.

 

I have decided I really don't care why. I just enjoy when, after listening to a component for a while, it becomes part of my system's "signature sound." In the year 4949 people will still be arguing this break in and cable stuff. Just roll with it and enjoy, but don't spend too much time thinking about it, it's not worth it.

 

Audiophilia: so much empiricism, so little science.

It's funny. I can't think of a hobby more obsessively focused on the minutely observed details of an individual listener's actual experience, over years and years of life.

And yet when it comes to checking the conclusions of that experience...well, the experience is said to be self-justifying. It's a strange combination, and a whole industry is designed to cater to it.

 

I've never experienced a component or cable burning in. I'm sure I have mentally aclimated to how something sounds. I have had cables that were way too bright and never got used to them even though the dealer said it would take 30 days to burn in, which was their return policy window, as well.

 

Yes, in nearly all cases the emperical evidence and tests are´nt stringent enough. So in reality we can just choose what we like to believe, isn´t that a good thing, reminds me of cetain politics.

As I said, I had high freq digital artifacts with a digital player, and it was so obvious, it was beyond a doubt. After som hours it totally went away. That´s the only example I have. But I no measured data of the problem.

 

Yeah, I would agree that certain gear, mechanically, might sound better after a certain amount of time passes. Cable 'burn-in' is one that I'm unsure of. No mechanical parts. I mean, once a cable is supposedly broken in, does it stay that way for the rest of it's existence? How about if you put the cable away for awhile and than re-install it, is it still broken in? Howzabout if you transfer said cable to another system, does it need to 'break in' again? Interesting that I've been into this hobby for 35+ yrs but can't positively answer any of these questions!

 

Exactly. You can hear the differences you can hear, and not hear the differences you can't hear, and the trick is not to try to fool yourself. As a case in point, I was testing out my new streaming transport today. I couldn't immediately tell the difference between 192/24 files downloaded from HDtracks and 44.1/16 files burned from a CD using iTunes (albeit not of the same material). When I played some 256k MP3s someone had sent me, the difference was obvious. Similarly, I tried connecting the transport via S/PDIF, optical and USB-Audio, and whilst the results should have been identical, USB-Audio sounded slightly better. It wasn't down to quality cables, either: my S/PDIF and optical cables were of reasonable quality, purchased from an audio dealer, whilst the USB cable was given to me by my IT people as they had no further use for it.

 

This topic never seems to get mentioned with it that all the other hours of the day, away from the stereo, we hear things. The table knife dropped and clattering on the counter, the toaster popping up, doors slamming, cars starting, birds chirping...and if you are really lucky, instruments being played.

We don't listen in isolation to the audio system and never hear anything else. If the brain was to just simply slowly adapt, then we'd need no other auditory stimulus as our reference.

CJ

 

You mean like the audio shell game? The one and only "test" (for some) that's never been shown to be able to properly discriminate differences?

CJ

 

Yes, but we have no idea if the things You mention sound exactly the same every time, and if they don´t; which is the most likely, we just don´t care.

 

It's pretty established that there is no such thing as burn-in, for anything other than speakers (which don't take long) and possibly cartridges. Otherwise, it's all about one's brain getting used to something different.

Someone mentioned tube amps - I've never owned one and am not an expert on their build, so I can't comment.