Buying a COMPLETE Tube Amp System for Living Room

I just checked and you only have a few posts, I believe that you need fifty or thereabouts to access the Classifieds section of the Forum.

It is OK to want to go with the amp first, now that you know what type of speakers you are going to need to drive it.

Can't comment on Golden Ear Tritons, have not heard nor used them.

Line Magnetic just wanted to freshen up their line. They made a few changes to the 518iA and it is now a 845iA.

A benefit of the 518iA or 845iA being an integrated is that you won't need to go to the additional expense of adding a separate preamp, or at least no right away.

I have been told that the preamp input only bypasses the volume control.

I have tried it with my preamp, which is always in the system, regardless of what power amp I may be using. I tried using one of the line inputs and the preamp input and it definitely sounded better using the preamp input.

I don't really care either way, but my external preamp did improve on the sound quality.

Being that you are in SF, it behoves you to visit with @Warren Jarrett and check out the AN speakers and amps first.

 

I would not pair a McIntosh preamp with a Line Magnetic integrated amp. If you want to use a McIntosh preamp get a proper amplifier to go with it.

 

A Mac preamp can be used with practically and power amp.

Suggesting that the LM 518iA is anything less than a quality integrated/power amp is sounding kind of silly to me.

Macintosh does not even make SET's like the 518iA.

 

FWIW, I read it as 'proper' meaning a dedicated power amp, rather than the other connotation, which is more pejorative.

 

Perhaps he was referring to the amp being integrated vs simple amp. You are right though McIntosh preamp goes amazingly well with many different amps.

 

I wasn't suggesting that the Line Magnetic wasn't a quality product. I was only suggesting that because it's already an integrated amplifier ~ why would someone do that? A much better pairing would be McIntosh MC275 or vintage MC30, MC225, any other Decware amps that are "not" integrated as well, etc.

No dis at all with the LM stuff, I think its' good stuff.

 

It just happens to be an integrated amp that you can use without a preamp or not.

I use it with my preamp and it sounds much better. It is just an amp that gives you the choice.

The preamp section on the 518iA is rather simple. The main money is directed to the power amp section, as it should be.

An external preamp is a very nice addition.

Mac amps like the MC225 and 240 are excellent and more powerful amps. The MC275 is nothing to write home about.

The MC30's are outstanding, but they are vintage and that is another can of worms.

All of these amps are more powerful than the 518iA, but they are all also class A/B amps.

None can match the sound signature of a SET like the LM 518iA.

I had a dozen tube amps of all types vintage and modern, from 3.9-Watts to 150-Watt monoblocks. This includes Rogue, Line Magnetic 211iA, PrimaLuna, Audio Note L4 Kit amp and Decware class A/B amps and none of them sound as excellent as the LM518iA.

These are my high sensitivity horn loaded and custom modified Altec Lansing legacy speakers. I run them also with the the small Decware 3.9 Watt SEP (single ended Pentode), but I can only do this, owing to their high sensitivity and even then, I still use a subwoofer.

I just didn't need the 22-Watts that the 518iA could deliver. I don't run the large power amps anymore. Not that there is anything wrong with them, it is just with the music that I currently listen to, mostly vocals, instrumentals and Jazz, I don't need the high SPL's.

 

I can see where you're coming from, but I would still say ... what's the point? Why buy an integrated amplifier and then put a preamp in front of it? Doesn't make sense to me ~ financially or otherwise ~ especially if you are putting a new system together from scratch. If you want to experiment somewhere along the trip ~ sure, but right out of the get-go I would not suggest that as my first choice to someone who is new at this.

 

Yeah I have to agree with this. I got a Line Magnetic LM-805IA integrated and while I like that I have the option to experiment with another preamp down the line, I wouldn't suggest that someone buy an LM integrated AND a dedicated preamp just to start off. Like you said, somewhere down the line? Sure.

 

The thing to do is to try and listen to complete systems - if you are in the vicinity of Warren Jarret then audition his systems. There is a system synergy advantage with the preamplifier and power amplifier use the same quality parts, the same capacitors, the same resistors the same internal wiring. Indeed, when the interconnects and the speaker voice coils use the same wiring and the CD player or CD transport and DAC also use the same caps and wiring and resistors and the same designer has control over the entire sound every step of the way.

There is a reason people tend to move to all AN set-ups after they dabble with a bunch of other stuff. That doesn't mean it will be the best at everything but it will sound "right."

I'm not a big supporter of just throwing money at things - McIntosh preamp with LM power amps. Well right off the bat you have to companies with completely different design philosophies right. One is a Push Pull and SS maker who mainly sells GQ style products (sound good but not really a real audiophile brand IMO) - the other is a SET maker trying to recreate old Western Electric designs.

Zu is typically a HE speaker designed for lower power than either of these amp makers, Polk is mass market stuff designed for home theater like most modern speakers that look similar.

I don't get excited by any 50% off deals - you never see 50% off quality high end brands because they are actually GOOD products that command those prices. Stuff that is always 50% is either crap at the 100% price and can't sell - or the REAL price is the 50% of price and they just want to make you think you're getting a good deal.

Buying mix and match can work but you still need to hear the whole set-up first.

 

I will make one another note - a lot of people prefer the AN J to the AN E - there is a reason there is the AN J SEC at over $20,000 when that guy could buy an AN E/Lx for $6,000.

The AN J uses the same drivers and has a considerable cost saving. Jack Roberts - formerly of dagogo - owned the AN E but told me he preferred the AN-J. It's also easier to position and get right in worse rooms. And interestingly while the J is 1 dB less sensitivite it presents an easier load never dropping below 5 ohms while the E dips to 3.6 ohms. The OTO (regular) struggles with the AN E a bit but does not with the J.

If putting together a system for $8,000 the AN J will pretty much compete with any loudspeaker on the market for just sound quality. And it has significant bass response too. Hi-Fi Choice measured them down to an in room response of 22hz - in blind sessions it beat ALL of the competing standmounts in the test and the magazine decided to put against floorstanders. The J beat ALL of them as well! June 2001 issue of Hi-Fi Choice.

Don't get me wrong - I ultimately prefer the AN E which is why I have them but I understand why people like the J better - it's really really close. And if the saved money can be put to a better DAC or better cartridge then the overall result will beat an AN E with a lower end cart or DAC. IMO -- YMMV

 

I like the J very much also. Its just the K that I am not so crazy about compared to the E and J: It suffers a but with its sealed cabinet, having somewhat compressed dynamics, and very limited bass.

 

So you can put a whole AN system together with AN-E's + amp/integrated amp + source/tt for 8K? BTW, McIntosh preamps are audiophile quality, they measure just as good if not better than other preamps within their price category and sound excellent. I hear this "they're only or doctors and lawyers b.s." spewed all the time and it just isn't truth.

 

I'm not too sure I agree with you on the bass. The K is around the class leader for its size. Faster roll-off can also give it some gains in the speed department - I am fairly sure Bob Neil AN dealer Amherst audio likes the K more than the J or E.

I think Peter noted that from a corner you would get usable bass to 36hz. It has similar bass depth to the likes of the Reference 3a MM De Capo but is easier to drive than the De Capo.

The interesting thing was that the AN K/Spe was the speaker that first got me interested in Audio Note! After the mopped the floor with the best Paradigm, B&W, PSB, Energy Veritas Standmounts and beat my then favorite Reference 3a MM De Capo and i version. Go figure.

 

I'm more favourable to McIntosh than most but I believe in being very selective with which specific items. My dealer in Canada was Soundhounds and they carry and carried McIntosh alongside Audio Note ever since I've been going there so I have a fairly good idea about the differences.

I don't think I was the one who brought up specific components - I said you could build an AN Sytem for that price and you can. But probably not with the AN Es.

I think you could do it with the AN-J/D with paper woofers (video shows the more expensive hemp) and then an OTO Phono SE, TT1 turntable arm 1 and IQ1. And their entry level CD player or DAC 01x. If you're buying the whole lot at one time I am fairly sure a dealer could get all that for close to the $8k number with some AN- A or AN-D cables or something.

Might have to drop down to the AN K speaker or AZ Three speakers. I am not up on the prices - my list is 3 years old and the prices have risen in that time about 20% or something from what I've been told.

The only problem with McIntosh is the internal parts aren't as impressive as the external parts. But to be fair they are not as expensive typically, they look good to me, and they resell well. I think McIntosh is underrated because people make fun of their blue meters and the Halloween turntables. But the turntables they outsource to Clearaudio and others so I look past that kind of thing - others don't.

 

A lot of McIntosh stuff is great but it's all about personal preference. You buy the high dollar/high watt McIntosh gear to drive 800 series B&Ws and speakers like that. At that point, it then comes down to whether you like the sound of that combination. Stuff like AN is completely different and some people don't love their sound.

But yeah, the OP needs to HEAR this stuff. All of us talking about what we have and what we like means nothing if they don't find something they enjoy.

 

Could anyone who has access to this Classifieds post let me know the seller’s username? I’d like to at least PM him about the amp and ask a couple of questions

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/line-magnetic-518ia-extra-tubes-extra-remote.841732/

 

Do you actually like the sound of McIntosh gear or are you just after the aesthetics / whatever mainstream prestige is associated with ownership? If you just want one piece of Mac gear to perch on a shelf like some kind of holy artifact you could grab an old tuner or something.

I think the systems being mentioned in this thread will offer a lot more refinement as well as that synergistic element you say you’re looking for. But at the end of the day nothing beats auditioning the stuff.

 

It's sold, dude.

There are looooong threads about this and other LM models. Plenty of reading there.

 

I've seen you pull this before ... and I guess AN doesn't outsource any of the build of any of their items right? Everything is built by AN in their UK factory right? No, not right... so how is it that you or other people dis McIntosh for having their turntables built by Clearaudio when you know damn well that AN's speakers are outsourced to a factory in Europe. Do you look past that and forgive the loss of street cred to AN or ignore it altogether and try to pass it off as if it's OK for AN to do this, but not OK for anybody else?

And having a piece of Audio Note gear on your hi-fi rack isn't vanity or prestige?

Like Mac couldn't possibly make good gear, it's just for show or prestige right? I don't know ... they've been around and in continuous operation since 1949 (probably when PQ was still in diapers), in the hi-fi world, that's pretty impressive IMO (with only a handful of other companies pulling this off). I doubt people would still keep them in business if their products sounded like sh!t.

 

It depends what you mean by outsourced - no company can make 100% of everything within the walls of their factories. I don't even think that that is necessarily mandatory to make a quality product. But one thing Audio Note does do more than anyone else is make the most parts in house of most of their products. AN speakers are made by hand at their plant in Austria - they have more than one plant - they own several each making different things. Most companies simply don't do that - they buy a transformer and build an amplifier around that transformer that they buy from China. And that doesn't bother me because the price of the unit is commensurate with the parts.

When the brand Vincent basically buys a Shengya amplifier and puts their own brand name over the front - that also doesn't bother me because they are essentially the same price - the Shengya version and the Vincent version. It only become an issue if a company buys a Shengya that sells for $2,000 and sells their amp for $5,000.

I'm the one who usually defends McIntosh because I think the stuff sounds better than it gets credit for. E-Stat on various internet forums is always blasting the stuff because of the looks and writing off the sound quality as a result. That is unfair. Ideally I would like stuff that both sounds good and looks good. Rarely does that happen.

I don't choose McIntosh simply because I like Single Ended Triodes better than I like Push Pull amplifiers. But that applies to Push pull amplifiers 5 times the cost of McIntosh as well. IF I were in the market for a push pull tube amplifier I would in fact place the MC 275 high on the list because A) it's probably near or at the top of the list for sound AND it looks awesome. I have on more than one occasion been seriously tempted to bring one home.

PQ has written in the past favourably about McIntosh. As I said - McIntosh is a company where you simply have to be picky about which specific thing you are looking to buy. They are a business that gives their customers what they want in the sense that they do not have the same sonic allegiance that a company like Audio Note has. What do I mean by that? Peter is the kind of designer that is kept up nights when something doesn't sound exactly the way he wants it to sound. McIntosh finds that people are buying SS amplifiers and drops tube amps to cater to the market and then started to build SS amps. Then tube amps became popular then McIntosh stormed back with tube amps. The decisions don't depend on what they think sounds good but what can sell.

The argument that because X is in business and has lasted a long time never works because McDonald's rubbish food and they are the king of the culinary world - and with stereos - one can look at Bose - who outsells the next 5 speaker makers combined. No one claims Bose is the best speaker except the people who only read GQ.

Personally I don't think any audio is a prestige buy because unlike cars - no one sees your stereo and the few people who do probably don't know squat about stereos. The only piece of gear in my system anyone comments on for looks is my KingKo amplifier and that's because it uses tubes and looks cool. Just like McIntosh looks cool. And before that was Line Magnetic 219. AN gear for the most part shields the tubes and is a plain box. If you're buying AN to show off then man oh man did you buy the wrong thing!

In this video is a tour of the speaker factory covered by Rafe Arnott of Part Time Audiopile


The Full article including the speaker facility is here Audio Note UK factory tours and Life in the fast lane with Peter Qvortrup | Part-Time Audiophile

 

I linked you to this one earlier.

Line magnetic 518ia integrated amplifier with Upgraded tubes

 

a couple of notes-
your room is large and open and committing to a lower output tube amplifier (e.g. the 22WPC Line Magnetic) will sound compromised unless you also commit to high efficiency speakers which come with their own set of compromises- and you should listen- extensively- before you buy. for example AN speakers typically require being positioned in corners. not every room is capable of corner placement and also doing so creates other compromises such as limited sound stage depth- many people love this sound however- but many do not. be aware and give some consideration.

other options for "tube" sound in an open room that give you flexibility in speaker selection and placement would include a hybrid system- (hybrid integrated- tube preamp / solid state power amp) or- a tube preamp and separate solid state power amp. also you could consider a higher powered tube integrated (e.g. a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III) that can drive most speakers and fill your room with ease.

there are many ways to skin the cat based on your preference in how you like to listen and what qualities you value in the sound. my initial recommendation of the McIntosh MA 252 hybrid and Klipsch Forte III speakers is an option that will give you the tube sound and have the dynamics and jump factor of a live performance in your room- but that is just one example. The Rogue CM III and Klipsch Forte III or any number of reasonably efficient tower speakers (Spendor A7) will also give you the live performance experience with few compromises.

 

Audio Note , in general, is too expensive for your budget. Although, I like the AN KIT Dacs for this price range.

So, you mentioned that this is for your living room... correct? Can I assume you will be using this system for entertaining and back ground music? And maybe not as much of a sweet-spot and listen by yourself kind of place? Anyway, I would treat those with two completely different approaches.

What kind of music will you be listening to here? Small jazz, rock, big orchestra? The more specific you can be here, the cheaper and better the results.

Without knowing this, take this suggestion with a grain of salt, but here goes: Your original impulse is probaby correct, go with a vintage amp and pre. Fisher, Eico, Heathkit, etcc will give you glorious midrange and dynamics. The typ of driver tube depends on your speakers but el84's (typical in a lot of thevintge integrated) are economical and awesome for jazz and rock. The size of room and volume are the deciding factor with regards to speakers and matching power requirements. Throw out every suggestion you mentioned w regards to speakers. you are way off base here.

Speakers are first and then amps. High efficient speakers are tricky. Getting good dynamic bass in a particular room is a bit of a journey. Good results are worth it, and once you hear it and experience it, there will be no going back. You should start a new thread on choosing speakers for your listening taste and room.

Is the source in this budget? Audio Note Dacs are hand in glove fits for high efficiency systems. Buy a used Kit. Take your time here and get one w OP tranny's and make a few mods and you'll be in heaven.

 

Because the 518iA is designed to be used as an integrated or as a power amp, with a preamp in front of it. You have the option to do either, as I have already commented.

It makes complete sense financially. And my suggestion was not to go out and buy the 518iA then buy a preamp to stick in front of it. My suggestion was to buy the 518iA so that he didn't have to buy at dedicated preamp, at least no right away.

My suggestion to to reallocate this money to buying the best speakers that he can afford.

My other recommendation is to decide on which speakers he will ultimate use and then to select an amplifier that has the best system synergy with those speakers.

"Put this money that you save in the preamp into buying better more efficient speakers. The better quality and more efficient speakers that you buy, the more that you will enjoy your tube system.

The more efficient your speakers are, the greater your choices can be with your tube amplification and options like lower powered SET amps become a possibility. The Line Magnetic being a 22-Watt SET can be used with a greater selection of speakers then similar low powered SET's."