Can An Amp Have Pace, Rhythm, and Timing?

I was going through the classifieds at Audiogon and clicked over to eBay to look at some amps. You know how we are. Just lookin'. Not really going to buy anything, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW!

So I Googled a couple of amps to check out some reviews and I came across a nice review of the particular amp I was looking at. All was going well until I read this line.
"Pace, rhythm, and timing, plus dynamic resolution, were all rated significantly above average."

Now to me, except for the "dynamic resolution" comment, it sounds like he's talking about a turntable.

My question is this. How does an amp have pace, rhythm and timing? I understand that some amps are faster than others. Solid state is generally faster than tubes but some SS amps are made to sound more tube like. They all vary according to brand. But it's not like an amp slows down or speeds up while you're listening. I don't get it. What's he mean by pace, rhythm and timing? It is what it is. It's fast or slow or somewhere in between. Am I wrong?

Can someone explain what this reviewer was trying to convey?

 

from wiki

System Hierarchy and "Tune-Dem"
Before the launch of the LP12 vinyl record player, conventional wisdom in the hi-fi community was that the loudspeaker was the most important part of a hi-fi system. Linn championed a "source-first" doctrine, arguing that, whilst a system was only as good as its weakest link, the most important part of any system was the source: Linn marketing cited the computing analogy "Garbage In, Garbage Out" - information which was lost at the outset was gone for good and could not be recovered, however good another component along the chain was, and that the it was therefore better to devote attention (and money) to devices earlier in the chain than later. The hierarchy has the following main stages:

- Source: the device extracting the music from the media (turntable, CD or radio). This device must carefully extract all possible information from the media; if this is not done, then musical information is permanently lost and cannot be recovered by the amplification or loudspeakers.

- Control: a device for providing control over the sources, originally switching between sources, and volume, but latterly including surround-sound processing and other system control functions. The control device must faithfully deal with incoming signals and pass the best possible signal along the chain to the playback components.

- Playback: components which convert the musical signal into audible sound: essentially amplifiers and speakers. The best that these components can do is to reproduce the incoming signal from the Control component, and cannot improve the sound.

Linn holds that within the source stage, turntable components have its own hierarchy. The turntable itself is said to be the most important component, as it must provide mechanical stability and accuracy. The tone-arm is next, followed by the cartridge.

Through use of the "tune-dem" - a method for hearing differences between components by attempting simply to follow the tune - Linn emphasises the importance of this system hierarchy. The launch of improvements to Linn's turntable, the LP12 SE upgrades (Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin 2) have seen a resurgence of the tune-dem in demonstrations, since lesser tone-arms are said to outperform the previous flagship tone-arm, the Ekos, when used with a Keel-upgraded LP12, showing thereby the importance of the source-first approach. However, this "tune-dem" approach has proved controversial with retailers and customers because it involves repeatedly playing only very small sections (no more than ten seconds) of music to the listener, and many have criticised Linn for their insistence that this approach is adhered to.

Linn states that the most important job for a hi-fi system is to reveal the music, and the system's success in practice can be judged by how well the tune is revealed. Whereas many hi-fi companies have promoted electrical specifications as indicative of their products' performance, Linn has focused on its products' ability to reproduce the elements of music as judged subjectively - sometimes referred to as "PRAT" for pace, rhythm and timing - or, in Linn's terminology, "pitch accuracy

 

I see these types of comments quite regularly in regards to components. Perhaps the particular reviewer you cited felt that the amp presented a balanced sound that highlighted the entire ensemble well, and this got his or her toes tapping. If the amp is weak inthe bass, as an example, the sound may be viewed as flat or lifeless, and therefore, lacking in pace, rhythm, and timing.

 

I think some amps do have more PRaT than others, maybe it's got to do with signal rise and decay timings. We touched some of that in the Rega Elicit thread. It might also be a matter of proper amp + speaker matching.

 

I understand what you're sayin' Keith. Then why not say it's not flat and not lifeless? That sounds truer to me than saying it has pace, rhythm, and timing. To ME it makes it sound like he's full of it. Ya know?

 

But the bass line is still there. Maybe not as loud or as long but it's still the same speed. It's not a turntable. It does not have W/F. It's the same speed.

 

I'll tell ya one thing Simon. That's a serious read. My heads about to explode.

I just finished work and am about to crack open a beverage.

It's going to take some time to take in all of what he's sayin'.

 

Over the past couple of years I migrated from a Rega Luna (50WpC Class AB) + ALR Note 3 90dB bookshelf to a Sugden A21a (25WpC Class A) + ALR Note 3, then to Sugden A21a + Fischer & Fischer SN400 90dB floorstander plus finally to a JRDG Concerto + Fischer & Fischer SN400. The first combo was full of PRaT and generally a good match, but the Sugden provided significantly more midrange sweetness and atmosphere. With the floorstanders, overall presentation improved, but the Sugden sounded more congested with complex symphonic music than before and resolved less spacial information (soundstage), most likely owing to a lack of bass control. The bass returned when I added more power with the Concerto, which also added some top end resolution, but lacks a bit of that midrange sweetness that I liked in the Sugden.

I guess what I am trying to say is that proper speaker + amp matching should definitely get first priority when setting up any system, otherwise all that expensive stuff doesn't perform anywhere near its peak and their musical traits are being blurred.

 

Do you mean that when I listen to DSOTM or Fragile my system makes the groups play out of rhythm and they have no timing?

And The Who and LZ too?

Mon Dieu, what's a poor boy to do?

 

My layman's take -- PRaT is just a buzzword for the most part, BUT dynamic resolution is real and is probably what truly contributes to the sense of PRaT. In other words, the more accurately your electronics can reproduce the changes and spacing between notes and instruments in a musical piece, the more engaging it's going to be on a PRaT-like level.

Of course if you're going down that road, you'd think that some gear would be better suited to certain types of music because the nature of the dynamics in music can vary a lot (the amp that sounds best for Black Sabbath may not be the best amp for say a Mozart string quartet). Personally, I think this is probably the case.

 

That's not the full story - although it depends on what you mean by "weak". You can have extension and power, but still not get the PRaT that another amp has.

 

Maybe it's just the way some audiophiles want to talk in touchy-feely non-technical language. But I agree with you, it sounds like nonsense. I remember the first time I encountered this in an audio magazine via an interview with Tiefenbraun or some reviewer following his line of description. You can hum along with the tune, or your feet start tapping. I thought it was the biggest bunch of crock. A reviewer is describing his feelings instead of the equipment or the sound itself. Maybe they are trying to get at something in the performance of the equipment, but I have always and still do raise a red flag of suspicion when I hear people talk like this - especially with stuff like amplifiers that really don't alter the signal timing unless there is some kind of gross malfunction going on.

 

It's just a matter of knowing what to listen for. Just because you don't know what it means doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Linn and Naim dealers used to be trained to demonstrate what PRaT was.

I could explain it, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Untrained listeners will always cry "hogwash."

 

No. Amp can't do that- those are the speakers. What can happen is that if an amp is not capable of providing enough to the speakers, then the speaker will appear to lack it... so thus when you get one that does have the current it will seem as though it magically has those qualities.

edit- in simplest terms, one can associate those terms with a particular amp when combined with particular speakers (although it should be stated in a manner such as "these speakers have pace, rhythm, and timing when powered by such amp").

 

prat = naim

 

Yes. Me thinks PRAT = you start tapping your feet/hands/fingers to the music being played & luckily you needn't be an expert/audiophile to experience this .

 

Unscientifically, PRaT is the ability to set one's toes tapping and/or head bobbing in time with the music. IMO, the ability of a power amp to produce music that has good PRaT is largely a combination of speed + dynamics + resolution + bass control.

Keep in mind that a power amp should not make (much) sound unless it is receiving a musical input and driving speakers. A power amp may be capable of PRaT, but still must be in a system with good and compatible source components and speakers to actually produce PRaT.

 

I prefer terms like "quick" and "slow".

 

Unscientifically is right. Hey, I have had transistor pocket radios that can make my head bob. Big deal.