DCC Archive Can You Dig It? (I don't know...)

To my fellow audiophiles out there... Being fairly new to the boards and maybe my ears aren't trained yet to pick up No-Noise, I need some input. I picked up the latest offering from Rhino the 6-CD box set of Soul: Can You Dig It.

Rhino on their CD releases in the past used to be primarily concerned with leaving analog hiss in to preserve the quality of the music.

However, when a/b'ing the selections on this Soul box to the Disco Box of a couple of years ago (such as It Only Takes A Minute) the highs appear to be somewhat chopped off. Many of the selections appear somewhat muddy as though No-Noise was used. I can barely pick up any hiss on a number of these songs. The sound quality seems to get worse from release to release instead of improve.

Does anybody have this collection? Are my ears deceiving me? Oh, and yes digipacks were used again!

Thanks for any help on this!!

 

Brian,
I'm definately not the expert on no-noise but from your very accurate description of the sound you're hearing I'd say a) Your ears are fine. b) You are in fact an audiophile and c) You've given a rather detailed explanation of the typical no-niose problem.

No doubt our resident experts, Steve, Sckott, and Luke will have a more detailed account of what you're asking.
Cheers

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Dave ]

 

I'm no Disco fan (although as a kid, I liked the Bee Gees as apposed to Kiss in the 70s, but we'll skip that)

What you may be hearing is a version of modern remastering techniques, a la Britney Spears. You take the signal, thow it into a 24 bit processor, dump the noise reduction into it, then use EQ to recompensate it. Once it's gone back to 16 bit without any frequency changes in conversion, you get a big, fat 16 bit signal for CD that is boosted high, and dynamics get tossed out the window because the signal is pinned to the ceiling without any hope of general shifts in louds and softs in the music. It's like taking a lab mouse and putting "Arnold" type steroids in the poor thing, and cafinate his ass until he can lift something 20X his size. It doesn't mean the mouse is happy. He's miserable, and he's loving it. (sheesh what an analogy)

Remember "Bam-Bam" in the Flinstones? Well, music wasn't recorded or meant to sound that way. I say thank god for vinyl, because it put eingineers at bay for reminding themselves they must stay within limits of signal restraints AND so they have dynamic shifts to have fun with.

Now you can take "Atomic Dog" by George Clinton and BAM BAM it, but weather you know it or not, yes the bass is amplified, but it's also got a bit of a haircut because the rest of the sound spectrum is up there right below its neck... so music's MISSING folks. The background overdubs are distorted and ocassionally sound like swiss cheese because in milliseconds, the signal in WHOLE goes beyond what digital can reproduce at 16bit so it gets "missed" no matter how good your 1bit CD player works.. Yes, it sounds wikkid cool, but the midrage especially gets treated like puppy chow in dithering the signal digitally, and it sounds thick and punchy, and a big loss of sensitive midrange and high end. This is what I mean when I say the mouse is miserable and loves every mintute of it. The music dies happy in your ears. Not good.

Kids love this **** but I do not. You don't make a pretty picture when you crayon beyond the lines, I tell ya. What you DO is find the master tape and master it with better equipment, usually of it's day. Labels are paying big money to morons with personal computers and Dat machines, not sadly to the people who have the equipment the music was MADE with rotting in their basement, cold as a razor. Just think- insects have better technology they're walking over than the "Pros" at the label using laptops and digital converters they crank to 11.

Kids (and some who aren't as sensitive) don't mind so much because Mp3 does the same thing though compression on purpose (although SOME of the data gets re-assumed though redundancy algorithms in the mp3 playback)


/Rant...

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Sckott ]

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Sckott ]

 

Sckott, you are right about the practices of many engineers these days but Brian wanted to know what Rhino could have done concerning the HISS and percieved DULLNESS, not about loudness and compression. Your rant is of a seperate issue.

Rhino has been VERY inconsistient in the sound of their releases over the last few years.

Bill Inglot does not believe in or use noise reduction. Period. He has gone on record stating this. But he has also stated that he likes to boost the treble. He may have done this in the past and that's what we are used to hearing, but didn't perhaps he didn't do it this time.

I have several copies of the Tavares track on several CDs, even one done by Steve Hoffman on a CD called "Right ON!". I don't know what tapes were used in any case but I knw that if a higher generation tape is used it can have hiss. Hiss is percieved as high end in the music. Sometimes a master tape will sound smoother, perhaps duller. There is the possibility of the LP version being used which could be a better sounding tape from the single edited tape.

Without hearing the new box set there is no way of knowing exactly what happened. Too bad you can't contact Mr. Inglot because so many people hate him he does not make himself available. Rhino, if they did comment on the sound, are probably clueless as to what Bill did on the set.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Grant T. ]

 

BTW, "Atomic Dog" is NOT a disco record and I have the original vinyl to prove that it isn't tampered with on any CDs I have with the track.

 

I realize both points. I was just using both as examples. Like I said, I'm no Disco fan, but I admit that I own Saturday Night Fever ST and a Polygram compilation of Disco for some songs I thought were neat. I'll say this, Steve is absolutely correct; Tape hiss is your friend!

As for that collection, if it sounds overly punchy and harsh...well.. you know the rest. Thanks.

 

I have Rhino's Foreigner Anthology and the Best of Montrose that Rhino put out last year. "Harsh" is an understatement for these discs. I'd really like to have Rhino's Devo compilation but if its as "harsh" as these 2 discs, I'll pass.

 

I got the Rhino Rascals Anthology and can't say I'm all too happy with it. That's just an initial impression though, as I haven't had the motivation to get back to it yet.

War-The World Is A Ghetto nothing special, but it's a keeper I guess.

I have America on the way but I'm getting nervous...

 

I bought Can You Dig It and so far am very happy with it. I don't think you will find that there was any pervasive effect (e.g. No-noise) that was used throughout. Of the limited A/B'ing that I've done, I've found the mastering to be identical to some other sources that I think sound great. For instance, the Let's Stay Together sounds to my ears to be the same master used on Al Green's box set - nice and punchy. To each his own, though; I've often been happy with Rhino's treatment of these types of collections - this box suits my purposes just fine.

 

Drew, you are right -on-the-money with your critique of the Foreigner Anthology. Whew! I thought it sounded like a poor lp dub! No dynamics What-so-Ever! Terrible. Not all Rhino stuff is bad though. Maybe with Foreigner, they just didn't bother to use a low generation source tape?

 

As I said before, guys, Bill Inglot has a thing for boosting the high frequencies. Maybe his hearing is going. But, you know they always use the first generation tapes, or copies of them. They most likely use what is in their vaults. Everytime they need to use a track they don't have to go back to a company's library because Bill already has the tape copy in their vaults.

I have virtually all of the tracks on the box set on other Rhino soul CDs and, while they sound good, the are a little bright.

Pigmode, the America CD sounds great. You'll like it.

Sckott, this soul music isn't disco. I realize many people who don't like disco tend to think most soul music in the 70s was disco but it ain't so. Yeah, SOME of it was or came close, but I get offended whenever you keep insinuating that it's all disco. But I also like disco. remember that they are basically two different animals.

[ October 29, 2001: Message edited by: Grant T. ]

 

I'm weird about the danceable music of the 70's. Even Aretha had her stint. I love the 12" version of "Miss You" by the Rolling Stones, I concider Abba mainly pop music in general, and "Let's Stay together" covered by Tina sounds more like Disco to me. Try to paint something around that, and you might get where I see things. It might not make sense, I just know what gets wiggy with me. Bee Gee's "Jive Talking" and "Stayin' Alive" sound more like rock and soul to me now. Gloria Gaynor sounds like Disco to me, and before you ask, so do the Village People.

4/4 time with a high hat on the back of every mesure. Sometimes it works, sometimes it gets on my nerves badly. Funk was its kissing cousin. Ironically George Clinton said himself he coudn't stand Disco after a while. "Try making love with one stroke"; he said.

Don't get it mixed up that I called FUNK as Disco. I was using an example of a non-disco track to use against the same ends. Don't worry, I haven't flown to some far-out nest on the opinions of music. I'm with you all.

I love Parlament and Funkadelic. I own Cds from both of those. As far as what the mainstream looks at as far as Disco, I don't agree anymore. Disco was a formula that was often emulated accidentally. Sometimes, it was on purpose. But don't get into what I say is or is not Disco, because I won't make any sense. I think many might agree on that, but disagree on what I say is a trite Disco formula, driven into the ground.

Note also, I wasn't a KISS fan in 1976. I loved Star Wars, the Bee Gees and I was 1st in line to see "Sgt Pepper" in the theatre. Times have changed. Heck I even rememeber getting a little teary when Strawberry Fields, the lady charactor in the movie died. Isn't it nice to know that Billy Preston can wake and ressurect the dead? Why hasn't anyone asked him to bring back John Lennon? Give him that magic trumpet and maybe he can put back the twin towers!

Ooof, I gotta stop this post before I look any worse.

The America CD set is awesome. Grant's right. If it doesn't, start thinking about upgrading some key components. Ditto to the Rascals Anthology. Give it time.

 

To all who responded to my post, one word: THANKS!!! I can't begin to tell everyone how much I have learned from Sckott, Steve, et al about fidelity, and avoiding NO-Noise used on CDs or all of you critiquing CDs to keep us aware of what to buy and stay away from. I still feel like a novice, but I'm learning.

I was concerned if No-Noise was used on the Soul box. I hate No-noise. I wish Steve would have handled this box set. While I love the selection, it does sound punchy and a little shrill as though the midrange is tweaked a bit.

Thanks for everyone putting in their valuable insights. I really appreciate it!

 

Actually, the difference between disco, soul and funk isn't the drums. It's the tempo of the music and the way the bass is played. Soul and r&b based disco music tends to be slower and more rhythmically based than the European variety of disco which we all started hating. The Village People and Donna Summer fell into the European catagory, while the Bee Gees and the O'Jays fell into the soul catagory. Listen to the rhythm. Funk was anti-disco, so there was no irony about what George Clinton said. The funksters oten poked fun at and had disdain for disco. Earth, Wind and Fire, also unfairly labled a "disco" band by some, made an anti-disco record, "Boogie Wonderland", much like Rod Stewart made "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy".

Brian, if you buy new CDs it will be next to impossible to avoid maximized CDs because almost everyone does it except for Steve Hoffman and the guys at Legacy/Sundazed.

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Grant T. ]

 

I can't see how anyone could have called Earth Wind & Fire disco.

Remember Fly Robin Fly? I still think it's a cool song. Great background music.

 

Anyone here ever watch "Rock N' Roll," the documentary series Robert Palmer helped with and the BBC and PBS produced? There's an installment on funk, tracing it through the 70's as it eventually produced disco. George Clinton was interviewed, and he mentioned how disco eventually died because it eventually revolved around a single groove that was worked to death. In his own colorful way, he said, "Man, try making love to a woman with the same stroke. She'll ask you to fax it in."

 

Just because George Clinton said it does not make it totally true. And, this coming from a man whom in the 80s produced sound-alike-recordings with the same "STROKE". Funk survived the disco era and I have tons of examples to prove it.

Earth Wind and Fire release "Boogie Wonderland" in 1979, and "Let's Groove" in 1981 and people I met started calling them a disco band. The Bee Gees record one fantastic "disco" record, "You Should Be Dancing", and do a soundtrack for a movie that they knew nothing about beforehand and they are branded "disco". Alice Cooper and Rod Stewart release one disco record each and they escape the disco label. Anyone recall just how authentic and serious Alice Cooper's WB single "No More Love At Your Convenience" sounded at the time?

 

I just thought it was really funny, Grant.

Still, I think there's a lot of truth in what he's saying, regardless of what became of his music. Besides, I don't think it's worth debating on what would fall into a strict definition of disco. The O'Jays are disco to some, it isn't to others. (When I listen to Gamble and Huff, I don't think disco, but I definitely would say there are elements in there that fall into disco.)

Love the music for what it is, not for the genre it would be classified as.

 

LOVE SCULPTURE's "blues helping"; another recording no-noised to death by mr. mew.

later, chris

 

I agree. I love the song by the SOS band "Take Your Time, Do It Right" and I prefer the 12" version. I fully take responsibility on bashing Disco, then petting it's pretty little head. Any true music lover who's prevy to being more apt to leave his musical doorway open will take his or her grain of salt, and season their record collection with it.

On that note, I'll say many things in the Jazz vein (fer example) that have listened to has made me a better listener, being a stedfast and boring classic rock fan. There's nothing Billie Holiday can't cure in a few minutes in my bad days.

Being an audiophile, you tend to listen with a guarded but open ear. I'm no Yanni fan, I think the Sex Pistols were brillant beyond what they tried to scrape togeher, and like Steve (and many of you) I digest a lot of Beatles like water.

I told Luke once about his preference for headphones was admittidly horrible, but no one should take the fact that what works for moi should be an insinuation that anyone should follow my lead with obligation in their mind, same for him.

I find it entertaining, interesting and informitive how people digest music. I've felt that way being a child with a fold-down record player and vinyl that looked like it was ruined with cheap cuttlery. We all grow into the shoes we walk the best in. I go through black Reebox sneakers, and wear jeans like pajamas.

While some might enjoy my input here, I also look forward to posts here everyday. These have been the kindest arguments and disagreements that we all agree are fun.

We're all full of it. For that, I give thanks.

 

If anyone has the 12" version of Rod Stewarts' "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy" please write to me, I'd love to get a CDR of it, or even master off of it, via permission to do so. I owned it when I was younger, it's long gone now. The vocals are from a different mix altogether, especially the last 3 minutes of it in the refrain, athough the arrangement is the same. It should have "Scarred & Scared" as it's B side. 33.3 Warner Bros. I haven't been red-hot on finding it, but in my travels it never surfaced. Let's see?? Thanks!

 

To hear what NoNoise can really do to stuff up an album's sound, try comparing Aqualung on DCC with the 25th Anniversary version!!!
Let's run the tapes through a noise gate.... ambience to the left, some of the recorded sound to the right, then squash it all down.

 

Another good example of No Noise is David Bowies "Man Who Sold The World" Some of the fadeouts, although not really the smoothest to begin with, are now akin to someone pressing on/off buttons. Also Deep Purple's "Fireball" now has weird artifacts manifesting in the cymbal track of "The Mule". No Noise is a pox on the musical landscape.

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Ian ]

 

How about "Beatles 1"?