I might be hearing things too -- or not. Very interesting comment, and it may explain something (rather touchy, actually). I was able to A/B a Tape Project Decca/UK classical recording (15 ips IEC) against the commercial 4-track 7-1/2 ips Ampex-duplicated version of the same title. The 4-track, produced in around 1960, was, of course, on 1.0 mil acetate tape. Another listener was present, and we both agreed that the commercial dupe sounded warmer and more natural. (The Tape Project reel had better speed accuracy and lower hiss level.) The explanation might be in the oxide characteristics of the older tape ...
Haven't heard either but the Decca stuff needs to be MASTERED CORRECTLY to sound natural and warm. It had a built in treble boost that is supposed to be reduced in mastering to roll off some extra tape hiss. If this isn't done, the stuff sounds etched and unnatural.
That's interesting, Steve. Does the notch in treble apply only to the Decca UK classical stuff or is it on the Decca US popular titles as well?
As opposed to other albums you've been talking about here, it seems likely to me that the stereo LP mixes for THE KING AND I and CAROUSEL originated with the mixes done for these "Z" tape releases. CAROUSEL is the big clue. That was a very long album, and the stereo LP cuts the first 2/3 of "The Carousel Waltz" as heard on the mono release and also moves "When the Children are Asleep" from side 2 to side 1 to help even out the timing between sides. Both these changes first show up on tape ZD-91.
No Capitol Z mix was ever used for anything but the Z series. All other formats, 4 track open reel, vinyl, etc. are different mixes, usually inferior, sad to say. Those Z mixes were really amazing. All mixed to 7 1/2 ips two track on an Ampex 350 octal.
Exactly my same observations when making recordings on various types of old stock tape. I can't afford Tape Project titles and haven't calibrated my machine for a specific type, but the observation may be worth more study. Old acetates = more hiss, but with a frequency boost in the low mids that gives music a "warm" and "romantic" sound. Old polys = less hiss, but more neutral and straight-ahead copy of the source material that leaves a tape sounding cold, since my ears have grown accustomed to Scotch 111.
Were most Z reel titles straight transfers from the master tapes? I don't expect an open reel release would require as much dynamic compression or EQ as an album would. There's no danger of breaking the groove, after all. They sound more dynamic than Capitol records from the same era, to my ears.
OK, you're the expert! The CAROUSEL "Z" release is ZD-91, which is pretty far along in the numbering. Any idea when that tape might have been released? Before the stereo LP of CAROUSEL, which came out some time in 1958, or maybe around the same time? Whichever, it seems the LP mixers at least copied the edits made for the Z tape.
Never heard either, sorry. No info for you! The Z's were usually mixed right around the time that the three-track was recorded. The flaw in the Z's catalog of course is that they were all missing crucial songs due to time constraints. Those missing songs were not mixed at all, sad to say. Capitol used dubs of their LP stereo mixes for their four track tape series, BTW..
Movie soundtracks are odd circumstances, though. For CAROUSEL and KING AND I, the original multi-tracks were recorded at Fox and are vaulted there. They would probably have been copied or loaned to Capitol, at some later date, to make the albums. Also unique to these two Z tapes (MUSIC MAN too, I think), is that no tracks were dropped from the LPs. There are different editing choices between the mono and stereo Capitol releases of these film soundtracks (OKLAHOMA! too, which, although it predates both CAROUSEL and KING AND I, it didn't come out in stereo til 59, and I don't think it ever got a "Z" release). So it seems that the stereos were complete "start from scratch" re-dos done at least a couple of years after the original mono releases.
Anyone have the ZC-42 title? Keely Smith's I WISH YOU LOVE. I'm curious if her voice is out of phase as it is on the stereo album. My guess would be NO, since these are unique mixes
I'm surprised the Capitol brass didn't believe that Peggy Lee would sell to the audiophile market. Hers is a smoky, sensual voice that has been a favourite of mine for years. Would have loved to hear a dedicated mix of a great Lee album such as THE MAN I LOVE or THINGS ARE SWINGIN'.
Thanks for the comment on Carousel Waltz. I always thought I had a defective tape! Just noticed, too, that Capitol duplicated its ZF tapes on Scotch 190, a problematic tape in that it warps with 'marginal' storage conditions and its oxide tends to flake.. (What I mean by 'marginal' is wound loosely and/or not meeting certain temperature and humidity conditions. Obviously 111 was generally not affected.) That may explain why it's hard to find good, playable copies of The Music Man. Luckily for us, Capitol ran most of its pop titles on trusty old 111. On another (Capitol) subject, I was very disappointed with Black Satin and finally sold it. Listening to it carefully, I thought the quartet and piano were recorded separately and mixed together. Each seemed to have its own acoustic environment, and I never felt they were playing together in the same room. Thought the mono vinyl mix was much better. Any thoughts?
Interesting comments. I've never heard the mono mix of BLACK SATIN. When was this album recorded? Was it prior to the 3-track recording integration? I don't have the reel but the stereo pressing sounds OK. Then again, I'm not too familiar with Shearing's works. Is it possible that George and the piano were behind isolation panels? Doesn't seem likely, though. Jazz musicans are taught to listen to one another to pick up audible cues. Take that skill out of the equation, and a performance will become stiff and predictable.
You're welcome. The complete stereo "Carousel Waltz" only finally showed up in stereo on the second CD issue of the soundtrack. The first one just duplicated the stereo LP edit. Another noticeable mono/stereo cut is on THE KING AND I. On the mono "Getting to Know You" track, the song is sung through twice, there is an instrumental version (the "fan dance" sequence), and then it's sung though again. In stereo, a cut near the end of the second chorus jumps to the last couple of lines of the third, so the whole instrumental break is cut. Again, the complete track only showed up in stereo on the second CD issue of the album.
Regarding stereo LP mixes: Any ideas who may have done the mixes for Carousel and The King and I? Either the LP or tape mixes? (I've never heard the tape mixes.) John Palladino did *some* of the 3-to-2-channel mixdowns for the Z-series of 2-track tapes, as he was the head of that department from its inception at the end of 1956. It's possible that Fox was supplying 3-track work parts for those two films to Capitol, but I would guess they would have been geared more for mono LP mixdown, i.e, orchestra on a track (mono), and vocals on one or two tracks. This appears to be how HIGH SOCIETY was managed in 1956, and is why the stereo LP is so 100% sucky sounding, i.e., the work parts were not really meant for stereo use, but to create a mono product. So....those Fox movie titles: Mixed for stereo at Fox? Goldwyn? There are no true "3-track session tapes" for those, right? Multi-track mag elements instead, possibly with a 3-track intermediate step for use by the record company, as opposed to actual theatrical presentation in 4-track playback?
The Oklahoma issue was addressed in Steve Hoffman's post that I quoted just above, in #195. There was, indeed, no Z release of Oklahoma, and I think the obvious reason for that is that Capitol really had zero involvement with that title. Todd-AO handed over the mono mix for LP release in 1955, all custom mixed from multitrack sources. It sold like hotcakes (and stayed in catalog forever, basically), and in 1959, Todd-AO created a stereo mix -- all done from scratch, i.e., different edits than either the film or the mono LP mix. (That stereo LP mix, when well mastered, is tops, IMO!) [EDIT: The overture has a completely different ending on the mono LP. My suspicion? It was recorded at the time of the soundtrack recordings, but "for Capitol" to use on their soundtrack LP, not for movie use. This worked out great....until a stereo version was needed.)
I don't know much about the Fox stuff, sorry. I know that SOUTH PACIFIC was (weirdly) recorded at Fox and not Goldwyn on six channel but that's about it. The movie studios furnished mono to the record companies and later when stereo came in went back and fashioned a stereo version from four track or six track mags. In the case (films I know) of PICNIC, Columbia gave Decca a two track mix on 1/2" tape. I'm not sure but I think that a few three-tracks of movie stuff exist at Capitol, reductions of 6 or 4 for pre 1960...
Yep, there's definitely a 3-track for HIGH SOCIETY that Capitol had/has, but it's not really meant for stereo, i.e., mono orchestra on one track, Sinatra on a track, Bing on a track. Works great for making a mono mix, but really should never have been used to create a stereo mix in 1961 or whenever that was done.
HIGH SOCIETY, that was a Paramount movie? They used Perspecta, right? A mono process. Probably all they had was mono music plus voices.
