Captain Beefheart Safe As Milk from the MONO master on Sundazed!!

On every quiet passage, fade out etc.? The particular mix of the LP being used isn't going to be immune from the same sorts of issues. Patching that extensively is more work than its worth. Besides, just get another clean mono LP. Thats what some needle droppers do - make it out of several clean records.

 

Most of them, yes. I still have to write detailed notes on the rest of the tracks, but every track but 2 has portions spliced in from the stereo mix (or in the case of Autumn's Child, small sections of the mono mix are spliced into the stereo mix). And for the only 2 tracks that *don't* have anything spliced in, the fades are noticeably early compared to the mono LP, *and* surface noise can be heard if you turn up the volume.

What?

Tell that to Sundazed, since they are the ones that keep doing it.

 

Whether stereo or mono - a record is just as likely to have IG wear / surface noise issues. Its the condition not the mix that matters. If a mono Lp was being needle dropped and bits needed patching in for 'cleanliness/quietness' the best remedy is a cleaner copy. I find it hard to believe another good mono copy couldn't be found.

 

Believe it.

And once again, nobody is claiming the patched in bits from the stereo mix came from an LP. On the contrary; those clearly seem to come from tape.

 

Previous analysis:

Autumn's Child
Grown So Ugly
Electricity
Where There's Woman

Next up: Abba Zaba

For the most part, there's not much to note about the Sundazed. No obvious noises or distortions, and the quiet section in the middle of the song is not spliced in. It sounds very similar to the needledrop of my friend's mono LP. However, the ending is spliced on from the stereo mix, with the edit just before 2:35.

The Sundazed 45 matches the CD, with the spliced on ending.

 

Previous analysis:

Autumn's Child
Grown So Ugly
Electricity
Where There's Woman
Abba Zaba

Next up: Plastic Factory

Near the start of the song there are a number of clicks not present on my friend's LP. At 1:06 approximately 1,000 samples were removed, possibly to remove a pop (not present on my friend's LP). At 1:21 another ~600 samples were removed, and (while seemingly inaudible) in spectral view one can see what appears to be the remnants of a pop. Another such edit (~600 samples) occurs at 1:33, and there's more evidence of noises that have been removed. From 1:33 to 1:34 there are a half dozen noises that are inaudible (at least to me) when played at normal speed, but can be easily seen in spectral view and can be heard when slowing the audio down. There are a few more such noises around 1:47, including one that I was able to hear at normal speed. Several more from 2:27 to 2:30, some audible. Yet another edit at 2:42 (~700 samples), and another at 2:52 (~3,500 samples). The Sundazed then edits to the stereo mix at 2:56.



As expected, the Sundazed 45 has the same edits and spliced on ending as the CD.

 

Having planned to buy this, but not having done so, your posts are invaluable to informing my final decision (no). Thanks!

 

Here is still the part that makes no sense to me.

Everytime Luk suggests it may be a needledrop, that is what he says. I assume that cannot be confirmed.

Why would Sundazed not use high end equipment, acquire several clean copies of the album (which they have the resources to do), and do it that way?

Then if someone asked if it was a needledrop, they could just deny, and it could not be proven.

Sticking the stereo ending on Electricity can be spotted a mile away.

What I am saying is, if Luk's conclusions are correct, it would be MORE work to do what they did, than to needledrop the whole thing, which could easily be denied.

It seems like there has to be more to this story.

 

I bought mine (CD) 2 weeks before Luk's discoveries. I really wanted the mono, as the stereo mix is terrible.

In my opinion, this is far and away the best sounding version of this album on CD (at least the mastering is good), warts and all.

I bought it for $7.00.

We may not like everything about this release, but I do not regret my purchase.

Now I just wish the mystery would be solved. Is Luk 100% correct in his conclusions? Is there another story that is the truth somewhere between Luk's conclusions and the belief it was mastered straight from tape?

 

Short answer: they definitely didn't "do it that way" for the Mamas and Papas second album, which has some very obvious, very bad needledrops combined with stereo folds. What makes you think other releases of theirs couldn't/wouldn't be similar?

Longer answer: there's no question bits of the stereo mix were spliced on (or in fact substituted for large portions in some cases). And there's lots of evidence that indicates the source for the mono mix was in fact a needledrop.

Why didn't Sundazed acquire a better copy of the mono LP and/or use better equipment? Those are questions for Sundazed, not me.

The only "other story" possible would be that the mono tape mentioned/pictured was itself a needledrop, which was used instead of a mono needledrop that Sundazed themselves did. Either way, a stereo fold was used for many sections, and the basis for the mono mix was at its core a needledrop. Of course, it's pretty unlikely that Bell Sound would have created a safety copy by using a copy of the LP instead of the master tape.

 

What puzzles me most is why they felt they needed to conceal the needledropping and suggest they'd found a long-lost tape to use as a source. I suspect that if they'd simply done a really nice needle drop (without all the patchwork fold-down editing) and then been completely upfront about it, they would not have lost a single sale. It's not like the original LPs are plentiful at every Goodwill and you can easily and cheaply just get your own and do your own needledrop. I bet everyone who bought one thinking it was tape sourced would still have bought it if it was 100% needle drop and identified as such. All the effort they put into this subterfuge seems unnecessary.

 

Exactly!

If they told everyone that this rare, fantastic album has no tapes, but we want to make it available to everyone at a reasonable price so we have made the best approximation possible, it would not hurt sales at all.

I cannot buy the mono mix of this album on vinyl (rare and expensive) or CD (has never been put on CD). The Sundazed is my only option.

 

I'd be buying it to have a 'real' CD copy though - I have a nice sounding needledrop of the mono already, so I'll stick with it until this is either resolved or another edition arrives. Thanks though!

 

Has anybody that is trying to solve this big mystery actually contacted Sundazed yet?

 

Various people I know have gotten no response, been banned from their FB page, or both.

 

Well done, Luke, keep up the good work. Only 6 to go, you're halfway there!

Sort of a request, but could you please post the spectrals to the ending of "Electricity", please? IMO the spectral change is most noticeable there, you're going from harmonic distortion from the cartridge to a roll-off on the fadeout, no way is that not suspicious to even someone who doesn't know the Sundazed is a needledrop.

Another thing I'd like to ask is this:

Sundazed also posted another photo on Facebook of this, zoomed-in but IMO with much better JPEG compression (proving the previous photo wasn't just some crappy JPEG-artifacted Xerox job from 1999 and was actually taken recently):



https://www.facebook.com/sundazed/photos/a.10150606040283791.390248.58611678790/10151444296583791/

One question that rises from these photos, however: if Sundazed never had a tape, then where did they get that tape sheet/box from? Were they just discarded tape logs that were just held on to by Bell Sound?

 

What did they write on FB to get them banned?

 

They asked about the use of needledrops and stereo folds.

What exactly do you want to know or expect them to say?

 

Wasn't privy to the FB stuff, and you've mentioned it a few times. Were you banned? Was there anybody posting in this thread that were banned?

 

No, I have not posted about it on their page.

I don't recall offhand if folks in this thread were banned or had their posts deleted.

 

Third possibility, which I've suggested before, is that the whole tape is a con job and that Sundazed themselves were conned...Someone put it together, sold it Sundazed as a magic new source, and they used it...

 

I guess I'd like to know what specifically was said, and how was it said. If it was blantally accusatory, and potentially slanderous, without offering any solid proof. It is there page, after all, and, used to promote their product.

 

Did Sundazed ever plainly or explicitly state it possessed the (or even 'a') mono master tape for the album? If so - please provide that link. (anybody, not directed at you czes)

I can't locate any such claim on either the Sundazed site or their facebook. The only Sundazed site information I see explicitly claiming master tapes is for the 7" singles and the Brown Wrapper release. Not for the mono Safe As Milk LP. Again, to reprint what Sundazed says of the mono album for the umpteenth time:

Now released on LP and CD by Sundazed Music, this landmark album now sounds the way it was meant to sound, thanks to the restoration of Perry’s rare original—and, to most fans, superior—mono mix, which was later altered by Beefheart’s label without the artist’s involvement. ​

Note that unlike their descriptions for the singles or Brown Wrapper release (which do claim master tape sources) the album description does not. Its written 'elastic' enough that people here and elsewhere are reading into it different things. (no surprise...)

As soon as one leaves the official Sundazed sites, claims that the mono reissue album is sourced from a mono master tape start up; for example on Zappateers.com, Beefheart.com, discogs, and some vinyl vendor sites. I find it hard to give these second hand (at best) sources much credence - in fact several cite unnamed unattributed sources as well. ("somebody said that somebody said.....") So is this just wishful thinking or folks 'reading into' the vague Sundazed description want they want to believe?

The Sundazed lack of reference to a master tape for the album stands out against the master tape claims for the 7" singles/brown wrapper. Thus - its hard for me to say they've misled anyone.

People may be inferring Sundazed claims the album is from a master tape, or, they may be perturbed that it has 'undisclosed' patches or restoration...fair enough. I'm not one of those. Instead, I look to the (inexpensive) reissue itself and simply ask myself: Do I like how it sounds? And I do.

All this digging around to discover the 'real' story behind the creation of the reissue is interesting (to me anyway) but folks like me are in the minority. Most of the type of people I know who buy classic old records, and reissues of rarities, are not into matrices/mastering/1st 2nd generation source/tube/solid state/Neumann lathe jabber. They're into the music. They're happy having a good sounding copy of a scarce record they can't afford.

Whether Sundazed revealed the 'whole story' of the mono reissue's creation or not probably wouldn't dent sales that much.

 

The 45s use the same patchworks as the album. Same source.

 

A stereo tape?