But if some people remember it that way then who are you to say they are wrong or that their bands aren't heavy enough? It doesn't matter too much to me 'cos I was only 16 in '79 but if you were listening to those bands throughout the 70's and you called it Heavy Metal like some folk did, then to use your jazz analogy your argument is like saying King Oliver ain't jazz 'cos it don't sound like Ruth Goller (or Ornette Coleman if you want a more well known name).
I'd say some of their debut LP, Tyranny and Mutation and much of their live album On Your Feet Or On Your Knees kind of fits the term in the 1970's context, of course. Maybe not now, but people are really being overly dogmatic about what is and what isn't. The term surely has been evolving since its reputed origin in the lyric of Steppenwolf's Born To Be Wild in 1968. Lotta years passed by since then and with them lots of changes within the genre or style or however one wants to describe it. To my ears, yes Helter Skelter by The Beatles sounds, if not heavy metal, heavy metal-ish. I won't get into The Beatles inventing anything, because if one wants to go down the rabbit hole you do find heavy metal sorts of precedents before Helter Skelter from other bands. I'd venture a guess that just since the '80s and the advent of all the associated sub-genres, the thrash, hair-metal, death-metal, etc., have impacted the term and people's interpretation of what it means, and the styles themselves made the all the earlier incarnations sound increasingly less metal than hard rock, just as the OP suggests in the thread title.
Spencer is phenomenal. If Rush ever decide to give it another go, they could do worse than to give him a call...
Yeah dude...Queensryche just ain't all that heavy enough...from the late 90s to the 2010s+ (nothing to get worked up about here..... just breathe in/breathe out, let it give you some silent lucidity... and then ask Della Brown to help you out)... I like Queensryche as well, but, i just keep em in the hard rock pile.
What are the basic musical features that separate heavy metal from hard rock? What are the common melodic, harmonic and structural components of music that has been called heavy metal by the majority of fans, critics and the musicians? Lyrical as well. Since the term Heavy Metal seems to be very subjective, the only way to attempt categorization is to define the above.
That's unlikely to separate every track. There will be some fuzzyiness. Even if you do separate the tracks how do you separate a band that does both?
Oh man, this sums up the general attitude around here towards metal so well, it's almost a caricature. Yes, why would you listen to someone who is a metal fan and actually knowledgeable on the subject when you, the non-metal fan, can rely on your hazy subjective memories of what you thought metal was 45 years ago and tell everyone what's what? After all, you wore a denim jacket with a Uriah Heep patch, so no one can question your authority. At the very least, metal threads are a great way to build up a robust ignore list and it helps enjoy the forum a bit more.
But that is the question I'm posing. If it was called Heavy Metal back then your moving of the goalposts is just that. I'm not putting myself up as an authority, you are. And if you put me on ignore for discussing the thread question, as opposed to you who are saying that the people discussing the thread question shouldn't be allowed to discuss it, then you're just an idiot.
See, here's where the revisionism comes in. Those are not "obvious" choices at all. Flower Travelin' Band were a japanese heavy pysch band who in the seventies were totally unknown outside Japan, they only gained more exposure abroad after their albums were re-released in the 90s. Pentagram are filed under heavy metal due to their 80's output, not because those two 45's they released locally in the seventies. For the record, here is one of those singles. and frankly, it sounds just like regular 70s hardrock:
I agree you can't most of the time. For instance Deep Purple uses blues based pentatonicism, modality, and major/minor classical harmony and melody. I think most fans would say that if a songs harmony is rooted in blues based pentatonicism, it is not heavy metal.
Look, more non metal fans showing up to tell everybody what is and isn't metal. Pentagram recorded a lot more than 2 45s in the 70s, but I wouldn't expect a non metal fan to know that or to be able to hear how the riffs on FTBs first album clearly separate them from the heavy psych of the day.
No! We are not "moving the goalposts" as you say....The bands themselves did the reconfiguration. If Pantera and Testament came out and said, "we're a heavy metal band", I, thereby, classify some in the heavy metal pile, hardrock/heavymetal hybrid pile, etc and move some of the older weaker sauce into the hardrock pile (formerly heavy metal apparently!). That's just the way it is...If you weren't soaked in this genre for decades, you wouldn't understand this.
So Louis Armstrong ain't Jazz 'cos he had a disagreement with the BeBop guys who were redefining it. That's ludicrous. No Jazz fan would say that. Sensible folk I guess. And btw, Jazz moved away from blues based pentatonic scales too.
Just quit trolling this thread and go to some other thread that showcases your favorite genres....jazz? bebop? go hangout with some bebop guys and bebop/bebup/bebamboozle/whatever ... Bye.
Lol. If you can't understand a comparison for illustration then perhaps there's no hope. And it wasn't me that brought Jazz and BeBop into to thread. That was BS 101. BS 101? Lol. Mind who you call a troll.
The music itself doesn't evolve nor progress. Styles change, but music as such cannot evolve. Every musicologist will say that. Sometimes we have the wrong impression that the music is moving somewhere, which is not the case.
Hey, you took a shot and wandered too far into something you know nothing about, thinking you were making a clever point. Tell us more about the history of Pentagram and how they only recorded 2 songs in the 70s. Man, the ignore button is getting a workout today.
This revisionism is quite funny really. If what was held true 40 years ago is no longer held true due to changing definitions then what is currently held true cannot said to be truly true as it will inevitably change in the future. Thus all definitions are in a permanent state of superposition. Both true and false at the same time. Heavy Schrodinger! Cuppa tea?
I love metal but not the really heavy stuff…I like metal like Foreigner, some of the harder Styx songs, Night Ranger, etc. Those are about the heaviest of the metal bands I listen to.
