Classical Corner Classical Music Corner (thread #56)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by George P, May 27, 2014.

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  1. Collector Man

    Collector Man Well-Known Member

    Cuts to musical scores are something I am very fierce about. In recording back around the 50's & 60's ...'a near enough..that will be sufficient' approach was the norm too often, for not only many an opera score ...........but for....what will surprise some people. a few orchestral works as well.
    Gliere's 3rd Symphony was just one example where it was savagely cut when first recorded..
    The repeats in scores. we take for granted - in so many recordings were at that time, not 'a given' .
    The 'near enough' attitude when I was a professional performers' agent... I truly hit the roof one day when a artist I represented, ..(then .going to appear in a series of staged production performances...said to me : " Can you JUST tape the bits that I will be appearing in?"
    Needless to say I bluntly refused. And some people have the cheek to call themselves "professionals>???!!"
    Subsequently this artist got stuck in a career 'rut'....any wonder why, with such attitude?
     
  2. drh

    drh Talking Machine

    The prevalence of cuts may have been a holdover from the recently ended 78 RPM era, when running to full, all-repeats-taken length could easily put the performance onto an extra side, meaning the set would cost an extra dollar. (Remember, a 12" 78 ran no more than about 4.5 minutes; anything longer would be split across multiple sides.) In those pre-inflationary days, an extra dollar was a big deal. Thus, for example, Gieseking's otherwise fabulous recording of the Beethoven op. 31/2 "Tempest" sonata from the '30s omits the 3d mvt. repeat so as to fit the work onto two records, 4 sides. The only other recording of that work available was Schnabel's in one of the "society" issues; it included the repeat--but that was already a multi-work album of 7 records, so the harm of running op. 31/2 to one extra, poorly filled side was negligible.

    That was after the advent of electric recording. In the acoustic era, until very late, matters were even worse: the general practice was to truncate long works so that they took up no more than one or, at most, two 4.5-minute sides. Thus, to take one example, I have an acoustic Schubert Unfinished ("Victor Symphony Orchestra," if memory serves) that cuts each mvt. down to 4 minutes, so that the "entire" work fits onto a single two-sided 12" record. Or, to take another example, Marie Novello in the Moonlight sonata, truncated to fit the first and third mvts. onto one side each of a 10-inch disk (ca. 3 minutes maximum run time) and omitting the second mvt. entirely.
     
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  3. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I don't think we are being politically incorrect here .... LOL
     
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  4. George P

    George P Lazy Sunbather Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    [​IMG]

    Now enjoying Beethoven's 5th piano concerto, as played by Pollini and Bohm.
     
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  5. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    First listen to CD 3 "Carmina Burana" from the "Love, Revelry And The Dance In Mediaeval Music" box set performed by Millenarium/Choeur de Chambre de Namur/Psallentes/Choeur d'enfants de lecole de musique de Forbach on Outhere.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. John S

    John S Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    I did't know there was a CD/DVD combo of this. I have the DVD-A and posted about it some time ago:

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/classical-music-corner-thread-25.250412/page-34#post-6639046
     
  7. ibanez_ax

    ibanez_ax Forum Resident

  8. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Now listening to CD 3 "Beethoven - Piano Concerto No.5/Variations in C minor on an Original Theme/Variations in A on a Russian Dance/Variations in D on an Original Theme" performed by Emil Gilels and the Cleveland Orchestra led by George Szell (PC5) from "The Complete EMI Recordings" box set.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. alankin1

    alankin1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Philly
    Now listening:
    Joseph Haydn – Symphony No.88, No.100 "Military", No.102
    — Columbia Symphony Orchestra / New York Philharmonic — Bruno Walter (Sony Classical)

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Now listening to "Volodos - Piano Transcriptions" written by various composers (see below), on Sony.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  11. John S

    John S Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Interesting...
     
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  12. ubertrout

    ubertrout Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Silverline reissued most of its classical releases in Dualdisc format, with an identical program. They also released a few as dualdiscs only, including the Abravanel Mahler 5th and 6th. Damn shame they didn't make it to the 8th, which is surely the pinnacle of the cycle, especially in surround.
     
  13. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    First listen to "John Sheppard - Media vita" performed by Stile Antico on Harmonia Mundi.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I have no criticism of people making completeness a firm criterion to their enjoyment of a performance. That is a personal issue. My post to Hawkman was just trying to inform someone new to classical music that a sizable fraction of classical enthusiasts will rule out an otherwise excellent performance on that basis alone . If Hawkman chooses to adopt that standard all fine and dandy. But there are many listeners who only have completeness as one criterion which can be overruled by other positives.

    Also there are quite a few different factors involved in judging completeness. For Hawkman's benefit I list some of them :

    1. The composer has two or more versions, at least one of which has significant cuts.
    2. The composer explicitly sanctions performers' cuts at particular performances.
    3. The performers make unsanctioned cuts for practical reasons such as the kind of performers available, time limits, audience acceptance etc.
    4. The performers make cuts for aesthetic reasons such as balance, orchestration, redundancy, weak sections etc.
    5. Recordings make cuts to conform to technical limits of the medium.

    I'm sure I am forgetting some other reasons. The point is that there is no metaphysical standard of completeness in most situations. Composers make cuts all the time; sometimes wise, sometimes ill advised. Bruckner is a classic example. People argue all the time as to what the correct edition is of Monteverdi's operas. Once the composer dies, anyone can say anything about what the composer really wanted. If you enjoy the complete score to the exclusion of any alternative versions, then by all means only listen to performances of that version. Each listener has to decide when they listen to a given performance what criteria to apply to it. Don't feel bad if you like some unofficial version. I happen to greatly enjoy Stokowski's performance of his tinkered score of Tchaikovsky's Symphony 4. I don't say that is the true score but I like his performance of his revised score, that's all.
     
  15. John S

    John S Forum Resident

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Another great surround disc.
     
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  16. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    A true virtuoso
     
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  17. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    One of the greatest pianists in the 20th century. I enjoy his Beethoven Piano Sonatas in the DG box ... :righton:
     
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  18. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    In addition to the above, I also have a second version by the Tallis Scholars ...

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Now playing the SACD layer for the first time of the following recording for a first listen ...

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    First listen to "Marie et Marion" performed by Anonymous 4 on Harmonia Mundi. I listen to Anonymous 4 almost every day, and on this new recording I can hear that there's a different voice in the mix. If I heard this on the radio I'd think it was a group that sounds like Anonymous 4. Just as good as I'm used to, just a little bit different. :)

    [​IMG]
     
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  21. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    I've only heard it so far on my main system, which is 2-channel. I'll have to check it out on the home theater system that's in another room. Sounds great in stereo though.
     
  22. bluemooze

    bluemooze Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    I'm slowly but surely working my way through that box also. :)
     
  23. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Yeah, the original A4 minus Ruth Cunningham. I do not know the name of the new member offhand ...

    I also do not yet have this recording in my A4 collection.
     
  24. EasterEverywhere

    EasterEverywhere Forum Resident

    Location:
    Albuquerque
    I love that cover.Any idea of the source?
     
  25. vanhooserd

    vanhooserd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville,TN
    [​IMG]
    This LP from 1977 was produced by Max Wilcox, who did a series of recordings with Rubinstein. The Engineer was David B. Hancock.
    The instruments are a Zenti harpsichord from 1666 & a spinettino from 1540. Recorded in Grace Raney Rogers Auditorium, 8/75. A recent 10-cent purchase.
     
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