Definitely not looking to derail this thread like an old man trying to figure out basic software lol I'll figure out the image thing and post them when I have it sorted out. Back to the matter at hand, the turntable is fantastic and the Clearaudio MM cartridge I've heard is also wonderful. At least it is with the Tracer tonearm
looks like a lower output MM so it should be somewhat more dynamic than a typical 5mv cartridge but physics are still highly in favor of a LOMC.
I don't at all disagree with you that a good MC cartridge is superior. There's no doubt about that to me. I'd love a Koetsu RSP or many other high end MC carts. But what I was trying to convey is that the Charisma or Maestro is not a waste of that table's abilities. It can deliver goosebumps aplenty. I promise you that. It's not a contradiction to do so. But to each their own. I just feel like I wasted more time by not giving it a chance than I have giving it an opportunity. The MM cart made me want 2 tonearms arms. There are times that I prefer it to MC. There are also times I miss the hell out of my Koetsu.
By physics, presumably you mean moving mass? I'm not sure there is much of an advantage there between high end designs like the ART9 on top in image below, and the Charisma on bottom. Both have similar boron cantilevers and low mass diamonds. The Charisma is based on AT designs, so has twin magnets in a V-shape front of the pivot suspension, whereas the ART9 has iron core coils in an inverted V-shape in roughly the same position. Anyway, I doubt there is much difference in moving mass, but no one specifies that anymore, so who knows? Much different electrical circuit, that's for sure, and the lower inductance is an advantage for the LOMC, at least when interfacing to the outside world of cables and preamps. Seems either could be made to sound great, but obviously most companies are concentrating on LOMC carts these days for their high end products.
informative post. i was under the impression that it was the generator side of the cantilever where mass came more into play- e.g. mass of magnets vs mass of coils and the resulting inertial reaction that affects micro dynamics and transient response.
Well, there are many types of cartridges, and some have a magnet behind the suspension pivot, which will likely result in higher moving mass, and hence the move to smaller rare earth magnets or iron tubes in some MI designs to lower that moving mass. But I'm just pointing out that the twin V magnet designs like the AT and Clearaudio have the mass of the magnets close to the pivot, so trade some output voltage for lower moving mass, similar to most MC designs. I'm not sure what the weight comparison is between the twin magnets and twin iron core coils, that would be the main moving mass difference between the MM and LOMC carts in the picture above. Peter Ledermann even claims his Soundsmith MI cartridges have lower moving mass than any of the LOMC designs, but he's not exactly impartial.
I really don't want to start a big debate MC vs MM, however, this table is capable of accommodating both at the same time and maybe that is where I will go at one point in the future. If I was into classical musical I would probably prefer a great MC cartridge, however, to my ear based on what I listen to I really love a great MM - forgive the comparison but it is like a great, wonderful V8 muscle car. Also, I currently do not want to deal with all the upgrades required to go down the MC route. I have done quite a bit of research both in the US and in Germany and I just hope that the Charisma will live up to my expectations. The table will be installed at the end of next week and I am really looking forward to that with great expectations.
I have to agree. One will just not get what that table and arm have to offer with a Charisma, as good as that cartridge might be. I have an Ovation with a Universal arm and use a Dynavector XV-1s, with a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL on the way (once it’s built). With an Innovation and a Tracer the money is not well spent until you put a deserving cartridge on it. If it’s budget I would be more inclined to get a Performance DC or Ovation with a Tracer and put the rest into a great cartridge. Once you have the arm and TT that can handle it a great cartridge makes all the difference. I would love an Innovation though. Very cool TT, but I’m good with my Ovation though (which at 10+ years is now the oldest component in my system). I still have my Clearaudio Concerto V2. That is a great cart, but the Ovation/Universal really started to shine once I stepped up that game, to the DV XV-1s I have now. I expect the Lyra will take that to a whole new level.
It is not a matter of budget but one of choice, staging and sequencing. As I mentioned before, the goal is to have two tonearms mounted on this table. The second will be a tangential tonearm like a Clearaudio TT3 and that indeed will feature a MC cartridge. At that point I will upgrade or add equipment to make the MC shine. Rather than going through a step by step upgrade of TT, I have decided to go right away to the end game.
Read Tone's review of the Charisma V2, I pulled the trigger. LOMC on my second arm, but the Charisma is amazing. I think stylus shape is a huge factor in MM quality.
Just be sure to keep in mind that the TT3 does not take well to non-clearaudio carts, the CA MC's are .5mv and higher except for the low end Concept and its sister cart. If you are adding a SUT to your MM stage just be aware. I love my TT3/Charisma V2 combo, the Koetsu is on the Universal as it was unusable on the TT3. It apparently a horizontal compliance issue. Great table! Jeff
Smart man. If we did this, it would have saved many thousands of dollars. And theres nothing wrong with a MM cartridge on an expensive deck. It will bring out the best of what you stink on the ent of the stick.
Fair enough, since you plan a cart upgrade. The Charisma does not make for a well-balanced Innovation/Tracer setup. I think you'll be amazed what that TT/Arm combo can do when you address the cartridge upgrade. I went from a Clearaudio Concerto V2 ($3k) to the DV XV-1s (nearly double that) and that was not a subtle or mariginal change at all.
Thank you, and if the countless reviews both here and in Germany can be believed, the Charisma is a simply outstanding cartridge that, in capabilities comes close to a great MC ( whatever that means, as I have no personal experience with any MC cartridge) . In general, I do a lot of research up front and do need an overwhelming preponderance of positives to believe, and that is clearly the case here and I did not come across a single review that did not sing the praises of the Charisma. However, at the end of the day, " the proof of the pudding is in the eating" and I guess I will know in about 40 hours of running this cartridge after installation next week. I will also agree with Jeff Kleinberg who in an earlier response stated that Clearaudio components seem to do quite well with other Clearaudio components, something I will attest to running currently a Clearaudio Concept with a Clearaudio Virtuoso Cartridge which is really quite an excellent combination. I will keep my fingers crossed that it will all come out roses.
Some people go by the general spending rule of thumb that a cart and a tonearm should be relatively close in cost. 2200 for the Charisma. 3k for the Tracer. Brand synergy. If you adhere to those generalizations, than it's a pretty good ratio. I always thought my Dynavector was a great match on the Tracer. But that hasn't in any way detracted the playback I achieved from my Clearaudio mm. The Te Kaitura Rua isn't as high end as the XV-1 but it's still a 3500 dollar cartridge. Here's the part though where maybe I'm just not qualified to be the best judge: I don't listen to any classical on vinyl or music that stands to benefit the most from a MC cart. Much of my collection is folk music like Josh Ritter, Gregory Alan Isakov, Punch Brothers, Willie Watson, Gillian Welch, etc... also a lot of jazz and then I have my 90 alternative rock collection. Those genres do extremely well with the mm cartridge. Carts are a consumable item for our kind. Sadly. But we go through them. I personally have spent the most I could afford on the table first, then the arm, then the cart, knowing carts will come and carts will go. Table and arm pretty much stick around. If you like what you own.
I mostly listen to acoustic music, classical and jazz. I have been through several cartridges on my Clearaudio: Talisman ($1700 at the time, it's what came with the table), then the Concerto V2 ($2700 then, $3k now), and then the DV XV-1s ($5650). Each upgrade has been a major improvement for what I listen to. Now I'm waiting for the next cartridge upgrade to ship. I suspect it will be another big step. I didn't always have the Universal arm though. I started with the Clarify, then the Magnify, but those arms had major issues with ther magnetic bearings for my environment. The Tracer didn't exist at the time I got my Ovation, or I probab;ly would have gotten that to begin with. However, I am really glad I have the Universal. That is a mad excellent arm and really brings out the best the carts have to offer.
I’m also curious about your motivation for using two arms. Not criticizing but here to learn. Obviously, with an Ovation I am limited to one arm and cartridge, and I’m happy with that. The Universal I have and the best cartridge I have budget for seems better than dividing all that into two arms and carts. I’d rather put all my eggs into one golden basket. For what i listen to, I just don’t feel like I have a use case for more than one arm and cartridge. That way I can go really big for the bucks, so to speak.
Once again it is all about choices. I hope to end up with the best of all worlds. An exceptional MC cartridge mounted on a tangential tonearm. Clearaudio makes a number of outstanding MC cartridges and I am sure I will find a great choice. The MC set up will be perfect for classical music. And then of course I have the MM side of the equation which I believe is well suited for rock, r&b etc. So, borrowing your expression - the goals is two golden baskets.
OK, I’m not sure I agree. Although I mostly listen to jazz and classical, I also have a collection of classic rock. I just don’t see where an alternative arm and cartridge will take me that’s better. If I have X dollars to spend, I’d rather spend all of $X one one arm/cartridge combination than have two lesser $X/2 for two setups. Why would I need something different for classical vs. rock? Personally, I think if something is great for X genre and less good for Y genre then something is wrong. If an arm/cartridge is truly great then it reproduces any music to its best for everything equally. By your logic then why not have one complete system for classical and another for jazz and yet another for rock, with different cartridges, electronics, speakers, and so on. In my opinion a truly great system is great for everything, equally. That’s how I feel my system is. I don’t make any adjustments based on genre, not with cartridge, or the subs, or anything in between. Back to my system. I have a Clearaudio Ovation, Universal, and I‘ll soon enough have my upgrade to a Lyra Atlas SL. So given that the Universal and Lyra SL Atlas combination retail for nearly $20K, I just don’t see how any two $10K arm/cartridge combinations could improve on that. Now if I had unlimited funds, I might consider something like two setups where I would have two Universal/Atlas setups with different cartridge alignments, one for more modern pressings with a Baerwald/Löfgren/DIN alignment for modern pressings and another using Stevenson for old classical records, to minimize inner pinch distortion. Or if I was heavily invested in mono records, maybe a Universal/Atlas stereo and a Universal/Atlas Mono for the monos. Again, I’m not trying to criticize the motivation for two arms. I know it’s a thing. I’m trying to learn and have yet to be convinced (except for professional situations that require it, like someone tasks with qualifying test pressings). If I had two TT arms they and the carts would be far less good than the one I have, and what advantge would that really buy me?
Are you going to limit yourself to Clearaudio cartridges? They are great. I had a Talisman and a Concerto, but I always thought (at least for my system) they were a bit anemic in the midrange. The Dynavectors have everything that’s great about the Clearaudio but are a tad warmer and more lush in the midrange. I’m not looking back. I keep my Concerto V2 around as a backup but don’t play it anymore. Just food for thought: don’t limit yourself to the Clearaudios. They are great cartridges but the Tracer arm is perfect for many others too. I know for sure the Dynavector range works very well with it, among others.
I don't know anything about your system, how it voices or most of the ClearAudio equipment you are discussing; I hope it exceeds your expectations. A couple observations since I use a lateral tracker, have multiple arms/cartridges, including Koetsu. Key,key, key to getting the most out of a table is good set up. The best set up guy I know is on the East Coast, Mike Trei, and he is worth every penny to come to your place and help you dial in the table/align the cartridge. As to tables, arms and cartridges, I'm not a churner. I have had the same main table since 2006 and use it with a linear arm. (Kuzma Airline). I've had a host of high end cartridges- Lyra Parnassus with platinum magnets, Lyra Titan i, Airight PC-1, and the later Supreme. All were "good"; what took my system up several notches (I don't usually talk about "veils lifted," "clean windows when dirty"™ and the like) was changing to the Koetsus, adding better isolation under the table and more woofers. One thing about a good table/linear arm is if it is all lined up right, you simply don't hear the halo of a record spinning. What the Koetsus brought to the party was gravitas- most people know their reputation for cinematic midrange from the old Rosewood but this has mojo in the deep bass- tone, texture and dimension. Adding two 15 inch subs to the existing 4 10 inch woofers (I wouldn't call those subs), plus the serious turntable isolation, in combination, made a dramatic difference in the entire presentation. I'm more about grainless midrange and a see-through quality; I can deal with sins of omission v. commission. The other part of turntable/arm ownership is ease of adding arms, adjustments, reliability and serviceability (fast service). I'm deliberately not mentioning brands here. Hell, I have a table in my lounge that I've owned since 1973- I could walk in right now and fire it up (it was restored by Bill Thalmann and that cost in light of tables today, was nothing). Get the set up right. Arm/cartridge- you'd be surprised at how different cartridges change the voicing of your system. FWIW, a couple years ago I was invited to hear a million plus system down the street mainly b/c a friend was in town trying to help the guy with his new table. (400 lbs before the shelf/stand). One of the three cartridges mounted was an A-T that retailed for less than $500. Or so I was told. The system had some issues having nothing to do with the table, arms or cartridges, but the AT sounded fine. You want something flexible that you can live with over time. I've changed or added arms, not so many tables and have been through quite few "fancy" cartridges. Because my system would normally sound reticent and bass shy without all the changes I made, it's probably worth hearing one of another of the other cartridges on it now. I had Peter L. replace the diamond in the Airtight Supreme, but also have another Koetsu that has no miles on it. Once you get over the hump on a useable basic device, the world is your oyster. I know one friend going gaga over monos using the new version of the old Fidelity Research (what's the name-Ikeda?) and one of those Maya????I fancy mono cartridges. All kinds of things you can do to get value out of a table. I leave you with two thoughts- getting the basics right since this is your source and getting it set up really well. Be fruitful and multiply.
