Coincident Dynamo SE-34: SET amp with 300B's - initial impressions

You keep saying that SETs are not good for electronic music, but that is just not a true statement. I’m not discounting what you’re experiencing, but just because the combo you have isn’t working to your liking, doesn’t mean that all SET/speaker combos are the same.

 

Maybe they need a Loudness button!

 

My push-pull PrimaLuna Four also did a better job with electric music and same speakers, but not as good as my SS amp with 3-way speakers.

 

Yes, but I'm not speaking for all SET amps, just for mine. And that's a piece of information I'm sharing that may be useful to others. Should I keep quiet just because your results are different?

 

The Zu's are OK, for $1k for the Omen, Dirty Weekend's they are a good buy for most home audio applications.

When I was in the process of buying my Line Magnetic 518iA one of the reviews I read was from a professional audio reviewer who had upgraded his Omen Definitions to the new driver's. He call this an end game combination.

Mine are the original models, I bought my pair used for $2,500, against the retail price being $3,200.

There is no comparison of the Zu's against the Altec's, not even in the same ballpark.

The Altec A7's which have been considerably modified from the stock versions are indeed endgame with the LM 518iA.

I ran my Zu's on a A/B switch. so that I could switch the Emotiva XPA-2 (generation one), back and forth between the Zu's and the Polk's.

Then I switched to using the Line Magnetic, KT88 based Prologue Five and they sounded better, but with them, listening fatigue did set in after not that long of a time.

I see them as having a pair of 10" modified guitar speakers. With tube amplification, I could say that they sound good, but I don't think they are nearly on the same level as the $2k Polk LSiM707's that I bought on sale.

Their design makes them highly sensitive. Highly sensitive speakers tend to overall favor that forward live sound which some like and other's definitely do not.

You've got to figure that most Zu owner's don't have any real experience with other high sensitive live sounding speakers, so they have nothing to make a true comparison to.

I don't know about version II, but the tweeter's in the original Zu's are awful and highly irritating, yes, the are detailed, but they are harsh and irritating.

Their bass really is nothing special. Turning them up louder does nothing to rectify this.

 

Just keep your honest opinions coming.

You don't appear to have a preset agenda, you buy gear, try it out in you systems and report on what your opinions are.

I like that.

 

I think I get what you're saying. It's lacking in muscle, body, weight, impact; that sort of thing.

I wonder how much us getting used to sound plays into this. I've been listening to my Sugden amp for a while now. Single ended, Class A, 23 watts. So hardly a monster. But it's always sounded very muscular to me. Lots of body and weight, and at the same time it sounds amazingly clear.

When I put in the CAP-80 (an 80 wpc A/B amp), after being so used to the Sugden sound, the differences jumped out at me. Bigger dynamics, more impact to drums, and it kind of surprised me but it was more holographic as well, with more focus and a wider and deeper soundstage. The problem though is that when the volume is turned up it sounds compressed and hard. And that open, holographic sound, kind of closes up when you throw complex music at it. With a female vocal and one instrument it's great. With a full band that is lost. The Sugden doesn't change like this when I increase the volume, has better tone, and really, it's not drastically beat as far as dynamics go. So long run, I think I will prefer it.

But I guess my point is, I got used to the Sugden. When I had heard it for the first time I wasn't sure I was going to like it. But I got used to it and it began to sound right to me. Only when I put the CAP-80 in I could tell it was giving up something in terms of dynamics and holographic imaging. Similarly, when I had an Audio Space Galaxy 34 (30 wpc push/pull EL34 amp) the bass was quite thin (definitely not an old style tube amp sound). When I played AC/DC I remember thinking uh-oh. But I was quickly won over as it did a great job in other ways and that thin quality eventually sounded fine as I got used to it. I remember it being thin, but it was clear and fast sounding. And not bright. Just a little thin in the bass. It was actually very fun to listen to that amp.

I think this can be a factor - you are right, the sound you're hearing is the sound you're hearing. But with different amps you will get a different presentation. There won't be right and wrong, rather each one will give a different perspective of the music. Listen long enough and our brains may adjust to accept something that we initially thought we couldn't. Then again, it could also be that your brain won't adjust to certain things.

 

I agree, but luckily - I don't have to get used to it. I can just play acoustic only music on it, and play the electric music on my other, SS-amp system, and be quite happy that way.

 

I only based my comment on your quote below. Didn’t get that you were only speaking for your amp.

 

I am? I was merely pointing out that the Elekit 300B handles electric AND acoustic really well, so it's not necessarily a SET 300B problem you are having, but your SET and speaker combo. I have an old Gang of Four album and the guitar and kick drum on the song "Paralysed" sounds like I'm standing directly in front of the stacks. Goosebumps. I don't think anyone is questioning what your are hearing; perhaps you need to get someone to bring over an Elekit or Audio Note SET amp. If you were on the left coast I would gladly bring mine over for a shootout.

 

I've already replied to the Elekit thing - it is known to sound differently and more "modern and fast" than most other 300B amps, and thus made no sense to me, as I wanted one that does sound old-school. I did consider it for a while, even before I knew of the Coincident model, but somehow that description kept me from getting one.

I did not buy my amp out of necessity - I have more gear than I can use at any one time, plus some in storage. I bought it because I've been reading about SET designs for a long while now, salivating specifically at the 300B tube, for starters (2A3 is next on my list). What attracted me to it was its old-school design and the ancient technology that still sounds glorious (as per literature I was reading). I'm and old-school guy all-around: I play vinyl, love tubes, ride a Harley, drive stick shift (in NYC!), and make my coffee the Old World way - stove-top espresso using a two-part screw-top Italian gizmo. So you see - I bought the amp not despite I though it would sound ancient, but because of it. If I can use that phraseology - that ancient technology sounds glorious with "ancient" music, and my first-hand experience now confirms it. That it doesn't necessarily sound as good with "modern" music is not a disappointment to me, as long as it gives me that silky smoothness with acoustic - and it does! For modern music I have other gear, so I'm fine. Please do not treat this as a complaint of a problem - I'm not complaining, I'm just sharing my experience here, which, BTW, I was asked to do by a few members here when I announced my intention to buy the amp.

So, I did a lot of homework, and decided to settle on this Coincident amp due to all the accolades and awards it has received, consistently, since their first model came out, and, precisely for being this old-school-kind of a SET amp. Granted, the accolades were given to it with the stock EL-34 tubes, which are not even triodes, but the amp was available with a mod for 300B's, and I jumped at the opportunity to get one. Perhaps it does sound "better" with the EL-34's, but I already owned an EL-34 push-pull amp - the PrimaLuna Four, and getting another one made no sense to me, and would not have satisfied my curiosity of 300B's. Now it is satisfied. If I ever have more room for another pair of speakers - the next tube that intrigues me is the 2A3. I'd be tempted to hear it with something full-range (but no super-tweeter) or horn-loaded, but that's is only a maybe, and in the future. I would also be quite interested to hear this amp with another pair of speakers - it's quite possible that what I'm hearing is largely attributable to the Zu's character, and less to the amp's. That's a possibility. I like this hobby - the possibilities never end, and the chase for better sound is always on!

 

Well, don't you think people do need to know these things, if they're considering spending their hard-earned money? Not everyone has the luxury, like I have, of owning more than one system, with various kinds of amps and speakers at their disposal. Most people, I think, prefer to put together one good system and play all their music on it. Threads like this form the fabric of first-hand user information available to prospective buyers. It takes more than one thread to weave a fabric - so don't put so much weight on mine.

 

Well Benzion, I also have the 2a3 Bottlehead Stereomour II that sounds pretty darn good for the money, and it too does the bottom end really good on electronica and jazz. It's been out of the main system for a while since I built the Elekit. I'm actually about to convert it to a 45 which is supposed to have even more of the sought after midrange magic, but at the cost of less power. Tradeoffs. Bloody tradeoffs. Once you hear the SET magic, its hard to go back.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't say it. I'm just saying instead of writing "But, if I wanted a single amp for all my music - I'd surely be disappointed, so let that serve as a warning to others who consider SET amps and have a lot of electric music in their collections," perhaps you should write "But, if I wanted a single amp for all my music - I'd surely be disappointed, so let that serve as a warning to others who consider Coincident Dynamo SE 34 SET amps and have a lot of electric music in their collections," if you were only describing your amp.

 

I was also told by Mr. Blume that the Omens would be a superb combination. I received my amplifier, but I am waiting for my DWs to be built! I am currently using it with some 85 dB ELACs and while the detail is lovely, the dynamics are squashed. Can't wait to receive my speakers and I will post my findings as well.

 

Well, perhaps you shouldn't get so hung up on every word I write and let me decide it for myself. People can process information for themselves, and can extract the useful parts. You seem to think they will necessarily just accept my writing as gospel and swear off all SET amps altogether. Or are you getting offended now, on behalf of SET amps? Give me a break, please.

 

Italian stove top espresso IS the correct way to coffee up, @Benzion. Full-bodied with plenty of dynamic contrast.

I haven’t tried Italian stove top coffee brewed on top of a Class A 300b amp, though. Now that is an interesting idea...

 

Definitely will need sensitive horn loaded speakers with a 2A3.

Perhaps you could give up your refrigerator for more space?

 

I was just posting my opinion. Should I keep quiet because your results are different?

 

Certainly not - speak your mind, but about gear, not about what I should have written.

 

I didn't intend to be confrontational. You wrote a blanket statement that stated all SETs are bad for electronic music. I clarified that this wasn't true. Then you put words in my mouth saying that I said you shouldn't speak your opinions and that you meant just your specific amp wasn't good for electronic music. How were we, as readers, supposed to know that when you said SET amps aren't good for electronic music, you were only speaking about your SET amp?

 

I think everyone but you got my meaning just swell. What you're doing now is semantics.

 

Enjoy your amp.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm just about to go (further) down this road myself. For the last six months, I've been running an AES (Cary) AE3 DJH preamp with a pair of Quicksilver SET Mono preamps (which use 6550/EL34/KT88 power tubes). I like this combo quite a bit. It has more stage depth than the SS amps I've had or demoed (Peachtree Decco2, NuForce STA200, Schitt Aegir), and I find it beat, in certain areas, a much more expensive tube amp (PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium) I was able to borrow from a local dealer.

Where those other amps had an advantage--with my Klipsch Forte III's--was in the very lowest bass. The Quicksilver SETs just aren't as authoritative/controlled down in the lowest notes. But! The combo still convinces with electronic music, synth bass, etc. I don't find it as thin as you're describing with your Coincident amp, Benzion, though I have little doubt that is a really nice amp.

What seemed to really help the Quicksilvers was moving from a passive Schiit Saga pre to the AES AE3 DJH pre. It gave the whole system a lot more meat, bite, and heft (to slightly mix metaphors). Unsurprisingly, perhaps, given how much gain the AES pre adds.

Now I've got a AES SE-1 power amp on the way. It's a 300b amp, and I'm *really* curious to hear this tube set up. I'm not expecting the 300b's to give me any more bass authority, but I am eager to see what it can do in terms of realism and midrange. I listen to a lot of everything, but mostly, lately, 50s/60s small group jazz. I figure that AES SE-1 (which I got for a reasonable price) is a great way to experiment with the 300b tube without dropping a lot of cash. And, b/c it's Cary made, I think it will be of good quality/components. And it matches my current pre.

One pitfall here might be buying multiple mid-range amps rather than one higher-end amp that can "do it all" more convincingly. Then again, I'd hate to drop a ton of cash on, say, a 300b rig and find I didn't like it as much as I thought.

I'm also considering adding a reasonably priced push-pull tube amp. Right now I've got my eyes on the Cayin TA-30 integrated. They seem to go quite cheap when they pop on ebay and seem virtually identical to what became the PrimaLuna Prologue Classic. That said, many models have to be biased by popping open the under-plate and finding the bias points amongst the wiring--something I'm hesitant to do given the danger and my experience. But maybe it's not really a big task/deal?

Thoughts on any of this welcomed!