CSN Remaster or Original CD

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DennisF, Jun 3, 2006.

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  1. DennisF

    DennisF Forum Resident Thread Starter

    The general consensus of the forum seems to be that the original CD release of Crosby, Stills and Nash's first album is preferred to the remaster. What about the CD of the 1977 album "CSN"? I have the original CD and have thought about getting the remaster. Help me out. Thanks Dennis
     
  2. yesstiles

    yesstiles Forum Resident

    But there's two remasters.
     
  3. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    Greater Vancouver
    Isn't there also 2 original USA pressings, one that sounds good and one that doesn't?
     
  4. Dave,

    can you give me a little more detail on that? I wasn't aware of that. How does the Germany version compare to them?

    Roland
     
  5. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    ohio
    for CSN (the couch album) there are four versions (U.S.), the original, the gold CD, the first remaster, and the HDCD remaster which came out last year and has 4 bonus tracks (but is missing crosby's "come in my kitchen" snippit).

    soundwise the gold CD and the HDCD are both hard to beat. the gold CD has that warmth, and the HDCD has, well, HDCD!

    i bought the HDCD, returned the second remaster, but kept the gold also. the gold does have the "come in my kitchen" snippit.

    if you can't find the gold, get the HDCD and find a cheap used copy of one of the first 2 to get the 10 seconds of "come in my kitchen".

    renny

    p.s. if you only want one, and you have HDCD capabilities, get the HDCD.
     
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  6. DennisF

    DennisF Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Are there two CD remasters of the 1977 LP "CSN" ? Thats the one I'm referring to with Just A Song Before I Go? If so, what about my original question - is the original Atlantic CD better sounding than the remaster(s) or not? Thanks Dennis
     
  7. rstamberg

    rstamberg Senior Member

    Location:
    Riverside, CT
    Agreed, for all-around sound and completeness, the CSN gold CD is currently the best all-around version in existence. The new HDCD remaster sounds absolutely fantastic, but the revisions (audio and cover art "deletions") are nasty sticking points for me.

    Avoid the original Atlantic CD -- it's sonic mud. Haven't heard the first remaster myself, but I've heard it's okay ...
     
  8. poweragemk

    poweragemk Old Member

    Location:
    CH
    Original Atlantic CD.
     
  9. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Haven't we determined the gold CD is exactly the same as the first remaster?
     
  10. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi rstamberg,

    Sorry you feel that way about the original Atlantic CD. I don't agree though. (I wonder to what degree monitors, placement or associated gear are playing a role here.)

    It might be interesting to do it again today and perhaps it would sound differently with a modern A-D converter and better cables from the output of the analog machine. I mastered that CD when I was at Atlantic, going directly from the 1/2" master playback, via a 10 foot pair of Pro Monster cables (which are a little "soft" to be sure) to the Sony A-D converter. There was no processing whatsoever on that one so what you hear on the CD is the master tape, the playback machine (a Studer, if I recall), the Monster cables and the Sony A-D... and of course everything that occurred to the CD master during replication.

    Could I do it better today? No doubt. I've often said I can simply keep re-mastering the same album over and over again and as time and technology progress, it would get better and better.

    Happy Listening!
    Barry
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
     
  11. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    The original Atlantic "Crosby, Stills & Nash" CD (240 033 and 19117-2 mentioned on the CD, 7567-81516-2 on the spine) is my favorite, dynamic, full and natural.
    The HDCD remaster is good as well, but I noticed a couple of drop outs that were not on the original Atlantic CD, e.g. Marrakesh Express and Wooden Ships.
    The Gastwirt remaster has noise reduction on some parts. I am not familiar with the gold CD.

    I haven't done any comparisons of the album "CSN" that the thread asked about.
     
  12. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    ohio
    the second CSN (the boat album) has 2 U.S. versions, the original and the remaster. i prefer the remaster, it seems a little "warmer" with the bass. the original was a bit tinny.

    there is not a whole of difference.

    the "boat album" is due to get the HDCD treatment as well, with bonus tracks, but i don't have any idea as to when.

    renny
     
  13. Barry, it's nice to hear from you again.

    The original Atlantic CD of Crosby, Stills & Nash (1969) is my favorite version, sounds great to me.

    I have not yet done that comparison regarding the CSN (boat) album which the original poster asked about.

    Barry, did you also master the "boat" album from 1977. If so, I would assume that it is the best version out there. There aren't too many things out there which beat a Barry Diament mastering job. If at all, it's a rare occasion.

    Roland
     
  14. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York

    Hi Roland,

    Thank you for your very kind words.
    I'm afraid this is another one of those occasions when my memory cells aren't making the connection. I don't think I did the "boat" album but I really don't remember for sure.

    I do remember doing the very first ("couch") album and doing "Deja Vu" (unfortunately all Atlantic would get me for that one was a U-matic 1630 tape to work from) and doing "So Far" (from 1/2 analog). When I think of the CSN(Y) CDs I've done, I remember the three I've just mentioned but not the "boat".

    Best regards,
    Barry
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
     
  15. Batears52

    Batears52 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Near Baltimore, MD
    This makes me think there are 5 versions of the "couch" album on CD...unless I missed something:

    1) the original Atlantic CD - 19117-2 on the spine - 7567-81516-2 barcode
    2) a first re-master, done in the early to mid 90's
    3) a gold CD
    4) a second re-master (the version by Joe Gastwirt you referred to??)
    5) the HDCD re-master from last year (done by Bernie Grundman)

    or has time dimmed my memory?

    I've had my original since it came out. I was a buyer at a one-stop in the 90's, and I remember that Atlantic was one of the first labels to issue re-mastered CDs to replace what was out there. The CSN catalog was done, along with the Zeppelin catalog, and other "prime" titles. I can't remember them all...I remember Jim Croce's Photographs & Memories was one...maybe some Yes titles. I remember that it wasn't a "campaign" as such...very little fanfare. They all had little silver stickers on the front of the shrinkwrap to distinguish them from the original issues. Even after they came out, sometimes an older CD would show up in an order. (Oddly, I never got around to replacing what I had at home.)

    So, Barry, did you do the "original" issue CD of the "couch" album...the initial "silver-sticker" re-master...or both?

    My Deja Vu is a bit different in one way. While my original "couch" CD has a barcode on back, Deja Vu doesn't. While both have the black & red circle (does this classify as a "target"?)...the "couch" album was manufactured in the USA by WEA. Deja Vu was manufactured in West Germany by Polygram. Would this be a different mastering than the one Barry mentioned?

    Atlantic didn't put a mastering credit on either of those CDs...typical for the period. But my copy of So Far (which was manufactured in Japan) has Barry's name in the booklet.

    Dexter
     
  16. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The Gastwirt version *was* done in the early to mid '90s. I want to say '93.

    And, as I've said before, unless somebody can show otherwise, I'm pretty sure the gold CD is no different from the remaster. Just different packaging (and being gold).

    I don't have the original CS&N CD, but I've got the original Deja Vu, and it's got a bunch of dropouts not present on the Gastwirt remaster.

    And as far as noise reduction goes, it seems that if it was used it was only on intros.
     
  17. Batears52

    Batears52 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Near Baltimore, MD
    OK...that timing is in line with what I remember. For some reason, I thought their catalog got a re-mastering & re-issue in the late 90's, but I must have been mistaken. (I was out of the biz by then.)

    But I guess I wasn't the only one confused!

     
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Well, there *are* two remasters - the early '90s Gastwirt and the recent HDCD/Rhino. I don't know if a secret remaster was ever done prior to the Gastwirt or not.
     
  19. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    ohio

    i'm with luke on this one, if there was a remaster before the gastwirt it was done secretly and/or with no fanfare. and i am totally unaware of it.

    renny
     
  20. bdiament

    bdiament Producer, Engineer, Soundkeeper

    Location:
    New York
    Hi Dexter,

    As far as I know, I did the original (first time on CD) issue of the "couch" album (and Croce's "Photographs and Memories" too).


    Being pressed at WEA or Polygram is not necessarily a mark of which mastering. I often made "masters" for multiple plants when a lot of discs were going to be manufactured.

    This was about the time I realized that CDs don't sound like the masters from which they're made. Well, they sound "like" them but they are far from being indistinguishable, "bits is bits", "perfect" copies. Every plant sent back a CD that sounded different from every other plant... and none sounded just like the original I sent to the plants.

    Barry
    www.barrydiamentaudio.com
    www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
     
  21. ozenterprises

    ozenterprises Forum Resident

    my 2 cents - I have the gold cd that was released by Atlantic, and I think it pales to the LP.
     
  22. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    Greater Vancouver
    Barry, great to see you again. :thumbsup:

    As long as we're mentioning preferences mine is for your mastering. I had the Atlantic Gold CD and it just didn't measure up to the analog warmth you were able to capture in your mastering.
     
  23. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialistâ„¢

    Location:
    Greater Vancouver
    Roland, according to what Luke was talking about with Deja Vu prior I believe I might have been thinking of that album when I originally posted.
     
  24. Joe Fornarotto

    Joe Fornarotto Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Find one of the original copies of "So Far"...also done by Barry...another excellent sounding disc. Best sounding "Ohio" on CD.
    I also prefer the original pressing of the CSN(couch) CD. Shame Barry had such a bad tape to work with for Deja Vu.....if not for those drop outs it would be the best of that title also.

    JF
     
  25. Leppo

    Leppo Forum Librarian

    Location:
    Off Broadway
    According to the liner notes it was mastered by Ron Albert and Howard Albert.

    Crosby, Stills & Nash
    CSN
    Atlantic
    SD 19104-2 Europe 250 369
    Made in West Germany by Polygram
     

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