Please explain to me how that impacts sound specifically yet is entirely immaterial in every other electronic component.
No need for a science experiment. You have an oven at home, I presume? If you tell it to heat up to 350*, does it do so instantly? No. It needs to both heat up AND stay that way for a certain amount of time for all the stuff inside the oven to be at the same temperature. That's how clocks work. They work at a certain temperature and take some time to not only reach that temp, but stabilize at a specific temp (because they sometimes get too hot and have to cool down, then warm back up because they cooled down a bit, like a home A/C system). OCXO's specifically are "oven controlled clock oscillators" so they are the easiest example. Oscillators are crystals, like quartz in a timex watch, except they have to work at a VERY specific frequency, measured in 1000ths of Hz, and require a specific temperature to do so. Cameras, PCs, and AV Receivers don't have components inside that require this sort of temperature stability, much less the need to "heat up." For a practical example - Mike Moffat, designer of the Yggdrasil, is currently warming up and burning in multiple Yggys for a double blind experiment to be conducted at Schiit Audio for an event tomorrow that will feature different types of listeners who will listen blindly to three different flavors of Yggdrasil DACs. He's not doing that for show, or for credibility. He designed it to work this way, and he's doing all he can to make sure the variables of the test are as controlled as possible. That's not "proof" but it's enough validation to assume there's a very good reason he's doing it. And frankly, the results of this testing should be super interesting, for many reasons. And for full disclosure and transparency - I am currently listening to a brand new R2R DAC for the very first time. It is a DAC that is said to require 300-400 hours of "burn in" to really reach its full potential. And even new, out of the box compared to a DAC that is highly capable and VERY musical and refined? It's doing extremely well. So I'm not a total "burn in" believer but in this case, I absolutely wouldn't mind if it keeps getting better . The DAC I'm comparing it to - a Venus II - IMO absolutely got a bit better with some age and hours on it.
Of course computers need to deal with temperature. That's why there is a massive heatsink around every CPU. You're kind of repeating the same thing without explaining the basis for the assertion, though. Given your argument, I'd really like to understand how temperature stability and lower tolerance drastically impact sound. And, again, why none of that matters for, say, the way my monitor displays colors. Why don't I have to "warm up" my monitor for the colors to look good?
Is the performance of a CPU dependent on temperature? Or is temperature a byproduct of the CPU doing work? Very different things. Does a car engine make the same power at 0*F versus 200*F? As for monitors, funny you mention that. I'm typing on a projector. When I turn it on, it looks horrendous. It has to.... warm up.... for it to look correct.
It's both, actually. But neither impacts the warmth of the sound my computer puts out or the colors generated by the GPU. So, again, please explain.
Projectors use bulbs, btw, hence the warm up. No bulbs in DACs, as far as I know. So, apples and oranges.
Where's your "science" that says CPUs are more performant if they warm up? It's actually the opposite - he says as he types this out on a water cooled PC that allows for more overclocking than on air cooling. You're conflating concepts and not actually responding to questions asked or examples provided. In short, you've made up your mind, and have your own form of confirmation bias operating to form your perspective. Enjoy your views and your music.
I didn't say that at all. You asked "Is the performance of a CPU dependent on temperature? Or is temperature a byproduct of the CPU doing work?". It's both. How am I conflating concepts? You're the one drawing a parallel with a projector.
That’s interesting, using the PM8006 as a preamp. I would like to try that someday, those adjectives sound appealing. I’m enjoying the DM100 very much. Now playing Radiohead’s The Bends cd which was difficult to listen to previously, but now more listenable and enjoyable through this dac.
Yea, the Marantz is very full bodied and smooth--it rounds off any digital harshness really nicely and helps with harsh/bright recordings. Really cool that you're enjoying the DAC so much!
Reaching and maintaining thermal stability, and the thermal noise of passive components, is 100% material and impacts every piece of audio electronics. There can be measurable differences in noise and distortion and frequency linearity between cold and warmed up equipment. Even over as Audio Science Review, Amir will tell you he's had occasion to measure differences between gear when it's cold and gear when it's warmed up. The differences are typically small and while the may be sufficiently audible to some, and in some context, to warrant some people to leave their gear on at all times, to others the differences likely are not mission critical type differences. But hey, we're audiophiles, we're all about the small differences, not just the mission critical ones. Resistors can have changes in their resistance due to operating temperature (and often over time permanently drift away from the target resistance) -- and not all have the same degree of temperature drift. I don't really know the tech of R2R DACs, but I guess that resistor thermal drift can potentially impact the accuracy of the R2R DAC's ability to output an accurate analog voltage from DAC input code, which is what a DAC does and is more of a mission critical thing than maybe slight drifts in resistance in an voltage divider in a tone control or something. Someone with knowledge of R2R DACs will have to explain or correct me, I'm not up on the tech. But if you're sincerely wondering about how resistor operating temp can impact the accuracy of an R2R, I suspect that's probably the area to look into. It may be more of a theoretical/design challenge than a measureable performance problem in a well designed and manufactures R2R DAC that's operated under non extreme environmental conditions -- DAC chips have to reach thermal stability too to operate per spec. But using lots of resistors that can drift differently with time and time for a DAC is a kind of obsolete technology. Then again, so is vacuum tube audio, and many of us like that too.
Funny... using my Philips CD104 with its legendary TDA1540 mono multi-bit DACs back in 1980-something, you turned it on, put a disc in, and enjoyed the music. The manual didn't say anything about leaving the unit on all the time or hours/days of warm-up to get the resistor ladder warm and cozy. And, Philips invented and then manufactured the resistor ladder at scale like no one before or after them could -- they probably knew a few things about the ladder, eh? I get that audiophiles have quite rigid self-reinforcing belief structures, and that every opinion online is absolute fact, but c'mon.
Or, it's possible for one person to feel one way about something as nebulous as "warm up," without feeling like they have to convince anyone else? Live and let live. The only thing that bugs me here is that Ham was basically just saying he isn't critically evaluating yet. He's trying to provide his most honest report. Why is that problematic or in need of scientific, peer-reviewed scrutiny to just want to provide the most transparent evaluation possible? Seems it's not Ham with the issue here, but rather the fragile sensibilities of anyone who disagrees with him. This is the type of engagement that makes a lot of folks just retreat and stop commenting. Why bother?
I hardly think that simply asking questions that challenge the validity or logic of a statement is "fragile sensibilities". ...because specifically, that was not simply what Ham was saying. The above quote is what I took issue with because I too have an R2R DAC and find this kind of blanket statement to not be true (in my experience).
Why would small differences in temp impact the sound and actually make it sound better? And why is this not the case with any other electronics?
Because the parts are designed to operate at a particular temperature and the circuit is designed around those values at those operating points. Not too far below. Not too far above. Dead accurate resistance is more important in some applications than in others. But the circuit is designed to do its work at the accurate values. And becuase parts values can not just change short term with operating temps but can drift permanently long term. It IS the case with all electronics but as noted dead accurate values are more critical in some circuit applications than others.
Asking for scientific evidence around hobbyist practices is entitled arrogance. No one owes you that, lmfao. Go listen to your music.
But a standard capacitor will work to a spec in a whole temp range that falls below freezing and exceeds boiling points. An oscillator should also maintain its PPM at a whole range that falls below freezing and comes close to boiling. So, why would DACs be different? And why does my monitor show accurate colors at start up but a DAC needs time? I also don't see how warm up translates to some kind of 100-400 hour break in. I can see that with phono carts and speakers, since there are mechanical aspects. But I just don't understand this argument with electronics outside of extreme deviations.
I'm not talking about anything having to do with break-in, though I am at least in part talking about break-down -- parts drifting from their specified values over time. There are applications where that maybe be more important than others -- a tube bias resistor that drifts maybe leads to a tube drawing too much current and red plating; drifting C and R values in an RIAA circuit maybe impact its accuracy. Oscillators CAN be impacted by operating temperatures -- there are actually oven controlled crystal oscillators and temperature compensated oscillators that keep the oscillators as a constant temp regardless of ambient temp because too much temperature change can change the oscillation frequency. Different parts and different applications have different requirements and temp sensitivities and degrees to which a particular value or operating point is critical. It just is what it is. Whether or not any of these are substantial enough in a given DAC circuit at typical home room temps to impact how it sounds is really up to the designer and the design choices and the quality of the parts and construction and the consideration given to these matters -- sometimes maybe you make one design choice, but then you might need say a heat sink on a chip where you might not if you run it another way, etc.. And how it sounds to you is just personal taste. But its not voodoo and parts value drift over time too does happen sometimes.
I agree it's not voodoo in the sense that physical properties are impacted by environmental factors, but I don't think the kinds of things you're describing rise to that level. Drift occurs after prolonged changes in key variables, for example, so warm up should have no impact on it. Within standard conditions everything should operate to spec, and a slight change in temperature shouldn't impact sound in any kind of discernible sense any more than my writing in a cold room or a warm room should change the colors on my laptop screen.
It's pretty well-known that the resistor ladder, in its complexity, can experience conversion errors. In modern ladders these errors are managed by an FPGA or DSP chip. If the FPGA can handle those errors under any circumstances why would this not apply to the variances you are implying come from operating temp?
I don't know - I don't design this stuff. I offered some analogies, anecdotes, personal experience, and all of it has been summarily dismissed and discarded. The theory and logic around clock oscillators warming up has been put forth by people who have ears I trust, and decades of experience with such things. Much like Ham's experience, what this all boils down to is - "Your personal experience with audio, gear, and listening is invalid and lacks merit without scientific evidence to back you up." And if that's the hobby you want? Fine. Enjoy it, because that is where discussion goes to die. You'll buy your gear off white papers and the personal interaction that has fueled this hobby for decades will be obsolete and discarded. It already has been here today and last night. There's no "discussion" here. Just a brick wall thrown up, that is impenetrable by experience or reason. The point is - burn-in and warm-up on Schiit DACs is known. It's something that has been known and discussed ad nauseum for YEARS. Yggdrasil's entire existence is predicated around letting the thing warm up. This isn't one person saying it. It's the designer saying it. The sales guy saying it. Just about everyone who has ever used one - saying it. That's not enough for @three_paws who obviously won't be swayed by anything but a study supporting this observation. And we all know - even if such a study existed, it would not be good enough, for whatever reason, because it flies in the face of what he believes. Do Schiit DACs have an FPGA or DSP board inside them? I don't think the multibits do, but maybe? Again, I didn't design them - yet the guy who did believes they need to warm up to sound their best. Heresy, burn that witch at the stake! So then - what does your anedote or point have anything to do with the original claim that a Schiit multibit DAC takes some "on time" to sound its consistent best? And again - the Holo May KTE I have downstairs right now is supposed to sound slightly etched and recessed for a hundred hours or more. Then it starts to open up, and it blooms at 400 hours. My personal experience is that it sounds bleeping awesome, right off the DHL truck, and sounds better than Venus II that's been sitting, warm, on my rack for months. So I'm not some vehement believer in all these things in ALL cases. But for Schiit multibits - I can't explain why, but it is a very common refrain.
