Decware SE84UFO25 vs. Unison Simply Italy => what can I expect?

If he’s a smart business man, he’s got every cent of those deposits invested which will at the minimum cover some of his potentially increased costs and in a best case scenario, even make him money. If he has the reserves, and he wanted to bet with inflation, he could simply buy all the parts right now to offset potential future increases.

 

Almost 1800 backorders..... output of 60 or so per month = Trouble

 

I see it as a bit of a catch22. Many businesses in Decware's situation may see the sustained rise in demand and look to scale up, increase profits and raise its prices by say 25% on all products (with a future 3-5% increase per year to deal with inflation) and use those extra revenue proceeds to fund the resources such rapid growth demands, such as pipe-lining new hires, larger parts inventory, streamlining processes, etc. Though with increased reward comes risk as this all requires long term capital commitments and investment (without the guarantee of long term revenue) and risks the potential that what has worked in the past does not work as well going forward if the quality of the product changes or the market does not react well to new pricing required to scale up.

Decware does not strike me as the type of company with its mandate to take these risks and maximize its profits and grow to as large as possible, rather it strikes me as the type of boutique company which it content with its size, is not looking to expand and prides itself on going above and beyond and blowing away its clients expectations (when really all it needs to do is satisfy expectations to justify its price). I see an audio equipment designer and company which prides itself on challenging the status quo with a really exceptional unique audio offering that pushes the agenda on what $1K (Zen Triode) or 6K (ZMA) should be able to afford. The Zen Triode could easily be double the price, and when factoring in that it comes with a lifetime warranty and is P2p wired and hand built in the USA, nobody would bat an eye.

 

What people fail to understand is they are too small to have 1800 orders in queue, they should have stopped taking orders after a certain number .

Decware knows exactly how many they make per month. Take 3 months of orders , build , then open orders for three more months of production. Repeat

 

Omega did this.

 

It’s the right thing to do.

 

Posted by Steve tonight:

UPDATE: We have another full time tech starting next week, bringing the number to 5. We we are looking for a total of 6. You'll see things ramping up by fall as we get into a new groove.

Steve : )

 

I know it's hard to scale when you are a niche .... a lot of people may never have heard of Decware, until several reviews and then BAM. If they temporarily stopped taking orders , built "X" amount and then resumed taking orders I bet 95% of the people wanting to buy would return. You don't order a Decware just because you feel like buying one. It is almost like a type of brand loyalty, even though you haven't received it and are on a waiting list.

 

Seems like a lot of hate. I have a Decware Torii mk.ii, have communicated with Steve about re-certifying and transferring the lifetime warranty... and most of all, this amp sounds absolutely fantastic!

How about we let a homegrown USA entrepreneur scale his business and make rationally patient customers happy to pay for and enjoy Decware's work.

If you found something else you like, cool. But bashing a guy who's providing jobs to his community, making customers who've received his amps happy, all while building an immense following based on quality design and execution seems more about you than it does about Decware.

Happy listening.

 

You may be singing a different tune if instead of having a tori come up for sale locally, you had heard one, and excitedly purchased one, only to find out you were waiting 3 years

 

Let us know how you like the Torii

 

I adore the Torii mkii!!

I have used it with EL34's and KT88's and think it shines with the former tubes. The Torii is pushing my Omega Outlaw Super 3XRS + built in 8" hemp cone subs -- it makes these speakers sing.

My source is an Audio-GD R2R-1 ladder DAC connected via either Bogdan Goldies or Tom Evans Eikos cables with Eichmann Bullet Plugs (not sure which I prefer more). I am currently using a Pangea AC-9 as power cable to the amp but have also used a Signal Cable Silver and a Harmonic Technology Pro-AC11. Power runs through a Deep=Core and Equi=Core and I am using Zu LibTec speaker cable.

After two or three weeks (albeit not with rigid A/B testing with my Line Magnetic LM-218ia, 845-based, SET amp), I find the Torii to give up little if anything in the midrange but has far better bass control and a more open high end.

It is a truly wonderful amp. So much so that the Line Magnetic will eventually go up for sale (and the LM is hardly HARDLY a slouch!).

 

I've waited almost that long for a custom-build guitar... on multiple occasions, actually. Sometimes good things take time.

Small boutique builders (of anything really) are often not prepared for the throng of business that sudden (internet-driven) success and demand can present. I think once you start shopping at the level of hand-made boutique, patience is also part of the higher price we pay for the product.

In every case, it has been worth it for me... and yes, finding a lovely Torii locally was a boon -- it's not every father's day I will jump in the car and drive from Boston to Providence to buy an amp!

 

I saw that amp on Providence Craigslist ! Glad it went to a good home. Enjoy !

 

The seller was a really great guy with an amazing system! So happy I grabbed the Torii!!

 

Hate? Here in Europe you would win every trial because of fraud against such a company with such a procedure.

I have no problem with whatever he demands or sells. But taking (a lot of) money for nothing is not a business model one should be proud of.

This has nothing to do with „hate“.

 

No hate toward Decware at all.... I really wanted to try a pair of UFO Monos but if you don't have time to answer a few questions before I commit to a $3500 or so amp then I have to look elsewhere. It has zero to do with the wait time or expense, it's all about communication.

 

Steve is completely transparent about their order queue: List View . I have never seen another company do something like this.

If someone puts in an order not understanding the situation, then it's their fault.

 

You have never seen a company do that because they were in panic mode due to the sudden explosion. It has NOTHING to do with transparency, it's damage control / PR. He HAD to do that, people were getting pissed and venting on his forum.. Totally irresponsible to let that list grow so high. Steve has 3 to 4 hundred thousand in deposits, what does he care? He doesn't .

Three years is a long time to wait for anything, no matter how good it may be. Most of the product shipping now were ordered 4/21. That's not too bad, and that's why no one is bitching . I would be curious to see how many people bail in the next 6 months to a year as they see their position barely moving up the list. 1800 backorders is a dangerous thing over your head , especially with parts shortages. Expect even longer waits.

 

That list existed way before the business explosion. I ordered my ZLC in 2018 and remember watching my order status on the list. I'm a little confused about people saying their communication is bad. I have never had any trouble contacting them. I once responded to a marketing email to inquire about a job there and ended up in a long conversation with Steve. I'd be a builder there if the pay and benefits could have justified an out of state move. I didn't even go through the proper channels and they still responded. I guess things might have changed since then though. If that's the case, I would definitely assume they're overwhelmed with inquiries. Hopefully they hire the help they need soon.

 

When you try to ask a few simple questions before ordering via email and phone and no one ever responds at all , that’s a problem.

Good luck to them

 

I totally agree, just stating that this is unusual for them, in my opinion. As recently as July 2020 I received prompt responses when asking about a product. A lot has changed for them in the two years since. Hopefully they get it all sorted out soon. They're a small family business and I'm sure it's been difficult to scale things up, but it obviously does need to scale or there's gonna be decade long wait times. People will die before they receive their equipment

 

Wow, what an ignorant and arrogant comment.

But again, this might be a cultural thing. In Germany (maybe Europe), that‘s called fraud. He wouldn't stand a chance here in court. In America it’s even called “transparent“. Wow.

If buyers were told before ordering, things would be different.

 

Actually, the link you provide to the waiting list is evidence of deception, not transparency.

Showing how long the list is has little meaning if he does not share:

A) how many orders ship per month
B) approximately how long the wait is at the time of order

To have a no refund policy and not CLEARLY explain the 3+ year wait at the time of purchase is teetering on the edge of fraud. And if nothing else, is not particularly smart.

The Decware forum crowd are yes men and Steve backslapping types, thus all Steve hears is how great everything is. Dissent is leapt upon quickly, both publicly and in private bullying PM’s.

It would be so very simple to be honest and transparent. Provide an agreement to tick that says the buyer understands the wait is 3+ years long. Put that right where the no refund stipulation is located. The extra techs might improve it to what, two years? Still way too long and does not forgive the no refund policy/ deception about the wait.

Just do it straight. Then no worries on all fronts.

But from some inexplicable reason, Decware insists on doing it the shady way. A way that might qualify as fraud in Europe, and perhaps even Illinois. The only thing I can imagine is that they are scared to lose sales. But when so overwhelmed with orders, trimming new sales is not a bad thing.

The Decware forums, in the mistaken belief that tribalism is helping Steve, only feeds the errant strategy. The notion that because Steve just posted that he has hired a new tech somehow fixes the issue is absurd. Hiring a new tech, or two new techs, does not remotely address the lack of transparency. Who they hire does not fix a deceptive website! But for some reason, the Decware mind is not able to understand.

I do not believe Decware has criminal intent. Just sloppy.

But hey, I’d rather have a great engineer and poor businessman design my amp, than vice versus.

 

I can assure you that it’s not an American vs German issue. It’s a Decware little fanboy group vs the world issue. Very few Americans would disagree with your view that Decware is not being transparent.