I don’t think foaming is generally the fault of the machine. The various solutions can build up and create more foam. The key is to find a solution that gives sheeting but not foaming. This may involve flushing with 1-3 tanks of pure distilled to clear the old solutions out of the system. Also some foam in my experience is normal if it clears by the end of the cycle. Also see Neil’s writing on this. Using a small % of IPA cuts down foam as well. I’m quite happy with 2.5% IPA 1 drop Dehypon and a full tank of distilled. I am going to make a solution and go to .5 or .6 of the drop I am using now to cut down on initial foam. Sheeting is great though and clears by the end of the cycle. using the supplied solution .5ml should sheet especially if used with 2.5% IPA. Also lab grade IPA is much easier to come by now.
I used to get foaming like this, using the supplied Degritter solution. After a while I realized it only happened with LPs which had previously been cleaned on my Clearaudio RCM, so I think this foaming is mainly due to old cleaning solution residues and nothing to do with the Degritter. I never get foaming with LPs which have already been cleaned in the Degritter.
I purchased my Degritter in December/January but due to moving/remodeling and being without a system I was finally able to bust this open last night. As far as ease of use goes it's exactly what I wanted. Some questions though.. I only added about 1ml of the degritter solution to a full tank of water. Is this enough? I did not get any foaming whatsoever and only used the medium cycle. I did this on an old (fairly clean) goodwill record and a brand new record I just opened. The brand new record was sad... warped and came in a paper sleeve with tons of paper dust, finger prints, and scratches. I took this record out after the first wash and it still had a ton of paper dust so I put it in for a second medium wash and increased the water level to medium. This visually helped but still had some paper dust towards the inner groove. Sonically I can tell the Degritter helped immensely and I had very few pops. Just wondering if anyone has any tips. Also, I noticed when putting the record into the slots it leans towards the front and sits on the rubber part during washing. I don't think it's scratching/leaving marks. During drying I think the fan pushes it into the middle. Everything is on a level surface so thats not a problem. So i'm just wondering if this is something to be concerned about.
I use 1 ml in mine. All new to me records get scrubbed in my SpinClean (with their cleaning solution) before a medium cycle in the degritter. Records I previously cleaned in the SpinClean and NittyGritty just get the medium Degritter cycle the first time I play them. I want enough cleaning fluid to wet the surface, but as little as possible to minimize residue. The 1 ml seems perfect.
Here is a photo of the record leaning on the rubber portion. This is a brand new Norah Jones Come Away With Me that I just opened to clean on the Degritter. Left severe scratch marks. I already sent an email to Degritter.
The rubber edge guard has come away from the lip. It’s a press fit, so, press it sideways back into place. The rubber edge guard can be inadvertently dragged out of position when siding a dust protector off the top of the unit. The edge guard is not glued or fastened into place because it’s removable for better access in the event that something falls into the cleaning tank.
Additionally if not leveled, the degritter it can cause the record to tilt to one side. The record in the photograph maybe slightly dished or warped which, combined with the level and rubber guard position, could cause the record to not sit properly.
thanks for this tidbit. I’ll see if it helps tomorrow. I used a leveler to check that the degritter, table, and floor and they were all properly leveled so thats not the problem. A warped record is likely a contributor to the problem but it happened to multiple records and the one in the photo ( AP Norah Jones) is pretty flat.
I have to lift the front of my Degritter with a couple of washers under the front feet to stop this from happening. Seen a number of people mentioning this issue.
Good post. I think it's good advice for all owners of ultrasonic cleaning machines from Degritter, KLAudio, Audio Desk, Saidi Audio, Kirmuss, and many homemade versions. Having an absolutely level cleaning platter when using a non-ultrasonic Okki Nokki, VPI, Clearaudio, Project, Keith Monks, or Nitty Gritty machine helps ensure the most even distribution of cleaning fluid.
thank you!! I tried this and although i'm still tinkering with it this has helped tremendously. I put three washers + a small spacer (I ran out of washers) on each side. I cleaned a new 2LP set and second disc was perfectly in the middle in the machine and sounded nearly dead quiet. The first disc was still leaning towards the front but was barely NOT hitting or was hitting on the label part. I washed it 3 times on medium and it was still fairly noisy but better I think. I think disc 1 was just a lousy manufactured record. Anyway, I'm still tinkering with it and its driving me nuts. Also, I think i'm going to add maybe 1.25ml of the degritter fluid instead of the 1ml. I need mental help!
Foams every time, but mostly first cleaning of the day (I run that first LP through with dry twice, then once only for every LP thereafter). Seems to still work very well despite a bit of foaming (I suspect the US works down below the surface in the fluid bath, that the foam forms on top of the bath so coats that part of the LP that exits the solution). My records used to lay up against the front of the slot too, I thought it was level but I rechecked the level with a round bubble level on top of the machine and then, seeing it was not, shimmed up the front as required with little squares of printer paper I cut up till absolutely level and now no problem with that.
The Degritter support team had me push back the roller inside which helped me a lot but i'm still having minor issues so it looks like it will be going back to them for support. I'm just waiting on shipping instructions. The support team has been great to deal with and they even offered to refund me for the records that were terribly scratched from the first few uses but I declined for now. Only downside is the time difference and only being able to email once a day.
I have enjoyed the journey of education on this forum. Thanks to all. New to Degritter-have cleaned a whopping 3 discs! Prior to this have spent countless hours over the years using a DIY approach cleaning my 2,000 lps. I'll spare you the evolutionary details. My current treatment for non-new LP's is a preliminary clean with AIVS #15 with a clean rinse on my VPI, followed by 3 sequential 5 minute baths using a 40Khz US. The bath is DIW with 0.13% Triton x-100 and 3% IPA. Between baths, each lp would be bidirectionally brushed with an Osage brush and DIW on my VPI for seven revolutions and then vacuum dried. I used to do one 10 minute bath followed by clean rinse, but started thinking about the Kirmuss technique and felt that intermittant brushing may be the answer. Like @r.Din, I heard an opening of the sound stage that even my wife could hear and once you have heard it, it's hard to go back. I would then put it on my Clearaudio Double matrix for a spin and do a final rinse on the VPI with DIW and 3% Ethanol. I recently added a new preamp, and the dealer brought a Degritter to try. Many pops and clicks and static on previously cleaned lp's were improved, but I now suspect that was the result of the residual detergent on the disc. I was hoping to simplify my steps, but now I see that a multi-modal approach is going to be the best. I commend @r.Din for his detailed analysis, but somehow I missed his final conclusion at what worked best and what he is currently using. Based on my reading of this forum, my plan is to remove the Double matrix, add the Degritter with a final rinse of DIW with 3%IPA. I'm considering adding another run with either tergitol or the Degritter fluid prior to the last step based on r.Din's observation that more runs in the Degritter consistantly improved the sonics. Any thoughts?
I've shortened my method somewhat since the previous discussions in this thread. I'm now doing a 2 minute soak per side in Nitty Gritty enzymes on vacuum RCM, followed by manual application of surfactant. Then into Kirmuss (2.5% IPA) for 5 minutes, then on to Degritter for medium wash in DIW. This delivers the "best bang for the buck" cleaning and means I can quickly move multiple records through the chain. If I want to be absolutely certain of best possible results, eg from a dirtier/second-hand record, rather than a new one, then I will apply my full method: 2-5 min per side enzymes 5 mins no-surfactant in Kirmuss 3 runs of manual surfactant/2 mins in Kirmuss 1 medium run in Degritter with DIW to rinse and dry. The main reason for cutting back on runs was that the machines heat up quickly and you can only clean one or two records before they need to cool down. With the abridged version above I can get 5 or 6 records through in 30 minutes, which is ideal.
Thanks for the update. Two questions if I may. Between the 5 minute runs in the 40 Khz tank with 0.13% Triton and 3% IPA, I will add 3 cc of DIW to the record surface and lightly, but vigorously brush with the Osage brush. This foams and covers the entire surface. I then vacuum dry and return to the bath. Do you think this is similar to adding surfactant to the dry surface and then placing in a DIW bath? It would seem that the surfactant added to a dry surface would remain on the record only for one revolution before being removed by the bath. Also, what is your approach to a brand new lp that has never been played. I appreciate your input.
I think you may be misunderstanding what surfactants do. Surfactants are not direct cleaning agents. Surfactants break down or reduce surface tension between a liquid and some other substances (e.g., another liquid, a gas, certain striated solid surfaces, and so on). An application of surfactant to a dry LP surface does nothing - it does not clean or prepare or loosen embedded debris. The point of adding a very small amount of surfactant to a water bath is to ensure that the water bath (and whatever cleaning compound it contains in solution) actually get into the microscopically narrow groove of an LP. Applying surfactant on its own to the surface of an LP is more likely to damage the groove (from brush agitation) than anything beneficial. Only a small amount of surfactant is needed in a cleaning solution. For a surfactant to actually work to break surface tension of the cleaning water, the surfactant must be in the cleaning water in the first place. Worrying that the surfactant might be washed away is inappropriate. Surfactant must be in the wash/cleaning water in the first place in order to do its job of breaking surface tension and helping the cleaning water to actually work effectively.
[QUOTE="r.Din, post: 27137815, member: 96672" The main reason for cutting back on runs was that the machines heat up quickly and you can only clean one or two records before they need to cool down. With the abridged version above I can get 5 or 6 records through in 30 minutes, which is ideal.[/QUOTE] Hello, I solved this problem in the next way: I bought five Frizet T200 blocks ( Frizet T200 Ice Pack Blocks | Cooler Accessories | Averto), they are frozen to -18 degrees . DIW is chilled in fridge to 2 degrees before pouring into Degritter. After degassing and adding 3.5 ml of isopropyl and 0.8 ml of Degritter fluid, I insert one block into the tank, it fits perfectly and doesn't cause the solution to spill out of the tank. In the first time I change the block after 3 records, then after 2 records and next times after every record. It enables me to clean at least 9 records (7 in medium and 2 in heavy regimes) one after another before the machine entering cooling mode. In the end of cleaning, I pour the solution from the tank into a jar and put the jar and the blocks into the fridge. I don't dry records with Degritter's fan because washing off the cleaning solution with L'art Du Son and drying records with vacuum machine gives much better sonic result. While a record is cleaned in Degritter, the record that took out of Degritter is washing and drying with Nitty-Gritty, so US bath works almost non-stop. I guess those who dries records with Degritter's fan can change Frizet blocks every 2-3 records (the fan chills the solution) and clean even more records in one session. Before cleaning records with Degritter, I prewash them with MoFi enzyme and dry with Nitty-Gritty.
Most people when the talk about applying surfactants generally mean a water/surfactant solution. Surfactants work by multiple processes, from Chapter VIII, Vinyl Record Manual Cleaning Process (thevinylpress.com), "VIII.2.2 ...Surfactants when they are first added to water collect at the surface lowering the surface tension. There is a concentration when the surface tension will not decrease any further, and this point is known as the “critical micelle concentration” (CMC). VIII.2.3 When the surfactant concentration is greater than the CMC, the surfactant forms aggregate cylindrical and spherical type structures called “micelles” as illustrated Figure 29. As the micelle forms, the surfactant hydrophilic heads position themselves so they are exposed to the water, while the lipophilic tails are grouped together in the center of the structure protected from the water. Micelles are what provide the detergency of a surfactant. As the surfactant concentration increases other micelle structures can form. The hydrophobic/lipophilic (oil-loving) tails of the surfactant micelle are what surrounds soils and releases them from the surface being clean, and depending on the specific ionic nature can perform functions such as oil emulsification, foaming, and antibacterial. To provide adequate reserve of micelles for cleaning, concentrations of 5 to 20 times the CMC are generally used." The CMC for Triton X100 is 189 ppm; at 0.13% = 1,300 ppm. this is 6.9X the CMC. For final cleaning in an ultrasonic tank this is a pretty high concentration and will require a lot of DIW to fully rinse. Tergitol 15-S-9 (that can be purchased Tergitol 15-S-3 and 15-S-9 Surfactant | TALAS (talasonline.com)) has a CMC of 52 ppm so a concentration 5X CMC = 260 ppm and much easier t rinse.
