Enjoyed watching the videos and impressions of the Degritter. I also own a Okki Nokki. Very curious about this product. Was wondering if you or others here could share what you might consider quick tips & tricks, such as: using the supplied cleaning fluid vs just distilled water alone Average cleaning time cycle Average drying time cycle Any other tips to feel are useful or valuable Addressing stubborn spots without resorting back to traditional RCM Thanks
I have two tanks, one with distilled water only, the other distilled water and 2ml of the Degritter solution. To do our tests, we prepared 18 LPs using a combination of fingerprinted olive oil, normal skin oil, and fingerprinted honey, all allowed to dry on the LP surfaces while stored inside paper sleeves. The average cleaning time cycle depends entirely on the griminess of a particular LP. When I tested my Degritter against a Saidi Audio ultrasonic and an almost identical Audio System Deske machine, they all cleaned equally well on heavily fingerprinted LPs. On medium cycle (4 minute clean, 3 minute dry), cleaning was insufficient with all three machines. Note that the SA and ASD both use rotating brushes to augment the US action. The Degritter still showed some visible fingerprints, but the SA and the ASD showing smearing. Playing revealed audible noise. Stepping up to the heavy cycle on the Degritter created dramatic differences. Six or seven minute cleaning, plus 3:30 drying. The same LP in the Degritter came out pristine, while the LPs in the SA and ASD came out with far less smearing but still not as fully clean as the Degritter. I repeated the test several times, with no change in results. For heavily soiled LPs I then tried a combination of a SpinClean (with the correct solution using distilled water and the SpinClean liquid), followed by each of the Degritter, SA and ASD. I then replaced the SpinClean with a Knosti Disco-Antistat (with the Knosti cleaning liquid). The SpinClean and the Knosti Disco-Antistat did basically identically good jobs of removing heavy fingerprints and sticky patches from each of six LPs. However, microscope examination revealed lots of embedded grime in the form of plated oils and sugars. The next step was ultrasonic. The next step was a medium cycle in each US machine with three LPs, then a long/heavy cycle in the US machines with the second set of three LPs. The result on medium cycle was almost perfect. The result on the heavy cycle was perfect in the Degritter, but not the SA or the ASD which both required another pass on heavy. Keep in mind that the LPs used for this part of the testing were nasty and deeply filthy. My conclusions are straightforward: The Degritter uses a smaller volume of water. Its US transmitter therefore operates with more evenly distributed action and more intense cavitation. It follows that its high operation frequency is therefore very well controlled. The Degritter has a very small, thorough and efficient water filtration system that is markedly more effective than the SA or the ASD. 100% of the Degritter water has to pass through the filter. The SA and ASD use a soaking-type filter that only partially cleans about 1/3 of the water volume (by my estimate) during any given cleaning cycle. The Degritter is quieter in operation - about 10dB quieter than either the SA or the ASD. That difference doesn’t really matter when cleaning one or two LPs. It makes a huge difference to somebody’s personal comfort when they’re cleaning five or LPs though. All three machines do their best work on their long/heavy cleaning cycles with a 3:30-4:00 minute dry. The Degritter does its best work significantly more consistently and generally more thoroughly than the other machines. For me, it’s definitely a keeper. I also ran a test with a borrowed Kirmuss US machine. It also does far better when a first pass is done with a SpinClean or Knosti Disco-Antistat on heavily soiled LPs. However, the Kirmuss needed 20 minutes of cleaning and then manual or air drying to get close to the cleanliness and thoroughness of the Degritter, SA or ASD. When the Kirmuss brush and spray solution were used as directed (instead of a SpinClean or Knosti) total scrubbing, setting and then US time increased to 25 minutes or more per LP. The Kirmuss system/machine is a nightmare device AFAIC. The Saidi Audio machine is very hard to find, but when it’s available it’s sold for about $2400. The Degritter and the Audio System Deske are sold for approximately the same price. The $50-$100 cost of a SpinClean or a Knosti Disco-Antistat should also be considered because they’re the best help of all for any US machine.
Thank you for sharing your test results and impressions. Based on your comments and the overall condition of my records, it sounds like I should be able to get by on a medium cleaning cycle. I can always incorporate my Okki Nokki for records that may need a little more attention.
Yes I do. And I think you might have meant $20/5 gal container. And if you can get Lab Grade I Reagent water at that price, that is very good. But you must add shipping. I did a group buy with a few friends last time I bought, 10x 5gal containers and it was $22/5gal plus pallet freight shipping $200. So, roughly $42/5gal. About half what I had been paying ordering one at a time from a source that discontinued selling it.
This is certainly the most thorough review of the performance of the Degritter that I've seen. (Have there been any "pro" reviews of the Degritter?) Deliberately contaminating new discs with the same contaminants is a pretty good way to compare performance since in most cases with used records, the contaminants are a big unknown. The sticky substances, such as honey, would be a real challenge. I found, with a few records that had been exposed to fumes, probably cigarette smoke, that multiple ultrasonic cleanings yielded an amber gunk. That stuff was really hard to remove, particularly since it had probably been adhered to the record for years. The other challenge is ground-in particulates, which may or may not cause permanent damage to the record. My best results seem consistent with what you found- pre-cleaning using something like AIVS No. 15, then at least one long cycle in an ultrasonic bath (I originally had the AD in a few early iterations, then the KL). I also found that I could get subtle improvements once most of the heavy cleaning was done by vac drying on the Monks, rather than using forced air drying coming out of the ultrasonic bath. The Degritter sounds like a winner.
I think I missed something. Could you clarify when you used the Degritter with and without cleaning fluid? If I understand correctly, your first test was with just plain distilled water. Thanks for the review. I now have enough information as to how best employ the different cleaning levels.
Cleaning cycle effectiveness varied slightly in depending on distilled water alone vs. distilled water with 2ml of Degritter liquid. On Medium cycle in the Degritter using the latter, 50%-70% of all fingerprints and hardened sugars were removed. On heavy cycle, effectively 100% was removed with the solution and approximately 80%-90% with distilled water only. Compare that to 40%-60% and 60%-90%, respectively in the Saidi Audio and Audio System Deske machines. None of these examples included pre-cleaning with a manual cleaning system such as a SpinClean or Knosti. Things improve dramatically with pre-cleaning. Please note that all this applies strictly to heavily soiled LPs with plated/hardened sugars, rubbed in oils, paper sleeve dust in all of that and all combined. For normally clean LPs - e.g., VG+ to NM grade used LPs - a single heavy pass in either of the Degritter SA or ASD machines resulted in a fully clean and quiet groove (excepting noise from physical damage to the vinyl). The exception was the Kirmuss machine which simply could not achieve a fully clean and quiet groove without multiple passes and a lot of repeats of brushing and a lot of time. One of the methods we used to assess audible noise was our superb little Sugarcube SC-1 Mini. The difference between most test playings pre- and post-cleaning ranged from a setting of 6 (heavy click and pop reduction) pre-cleaning, down to either 2-3 or Bypass post-cleaning. We found such differences to be impressive. Strictly comparing the number of cleaning passes and the associated time involved, the Kirmuss machine was the loser by far in our sessions. We followed Charles Kirmuss’ own usage tutorial that was provided to me almost one-on-one at the Toronto Audio Show a couple of years ago. In all cases we use the US machine maker’s recommended liquids and solutions and brushes and cloths, etc.
More Toronto fun Excellent write up, and applaud your diligence. I have found with significant finger prints and other oils that even multiple heavy passes with the heavier cleaner don't quite get everything as perfect looking as a sweep with the okki, which is why I've to date kept both machines. In my interview with them Taniel admitted the combination of a vaccuum machine with the US does likely provide the ultimate, but it's of course dependent on lots of other factors. Note again that the ease of use and continuous support is an extremely positive thing about the unit. It's clear they're cooking up other stuff in near future, hinged at on social media, but as a first product I remain extremely impressed.and still believe it to be the best all around product for getting the job done.
Hello all, Almost ready to buy my degritter after reading about it here and online. Just have 1 concern left. I mainly have 7" records and read that its a bit anoying to use the adapter (takes some time, doesnt always work easily and you need to properly insert it in the machine) What are yoou opinions about this? Thanks for your help!! David
The 7" adapter is a bit of a pain - it has rubber grommets which hold the record and I find they catch on the rubber lips of the Degritter while rotating, which means I have to sit there and gently move things to keep it turning. Also, I'm kind of worried that one of the grommets will fall into the machine... so I tend to avoid cleaning 7"...
Yes i checked your video. Will mail degritter, shame its not so straightforward/practical. Its a reason for me not to buy it. Thanks D
I sat on the fence since the Degritter became available and finally ordered one a few months ago. Had to wait about 2 months before it finally arrived, due to the Pandemic. I have had it about a week and have only ran a few Lps thru it, but not sure if it is working correctly. I have ran a couple of new Lps through the Degritter, on the maximum cleaning cycle, and they seem 'clean' coming out... about the same as going in, except that when I inspect the record there seems to be tiny specs of lint/paper still stuck on the surface and in the grooves. Last night I cleaned an album multiple times using the maximum setting and then finally added 1.5 ml of the cleaner, as I was just using distilled water at first because these are all new records I'm 'cleaning'. The lint/paper specs come loose after a little rubbing with my finger, but shouldn't the Degritter be doing this? Is there a way to check that the transducers are operating as they should? How am I to know if all that is running is the pump or fan? Is there something in the software I can check on the screen? I have a Keith Monks KMAL twin platter RCM which I have almost completed rebuilding/modifying.. I replaced the original vacuum pump with a new, more powerful modern pump (same one they use on their new model)replaced both the arm motor and the thread spool motor with custom Industrial HD motors that turn 1/2 the speed of the originals and also slowed both platters speed from 100 rpm, down to 50 rpm. Also added a vacuum gauge. Cleaning a record now will take 2x longer (was 1 minute per side, now will be 2 minute per side), but I was not comfortable with the high rpm of both the platters original speed. I believe this will be a better cleaning RCM, as the vacuum arm will be working the same area with slightly more vacuum (also adjustable) than before and safer on the records than the original design. Everyone stay well! Rick
Check the Degritter web site to ensure you have the latest updates. Rotate the right knob until you reach the page that shows the serial number and update number. The manual states that some LPs may require precleaning. Sometimes new records are very dirty and have residue stuck on them. There are a few good tutorials on YouTube.
Folks, I'm curious about the sonic results with your Degritters. Do you hear much difference with cleaned LPs? Does the cleaning process alter the sound (that is produce any possible degradation/sonic change/artifacts) in of itself to your ears?
I think it’s easy to get the impression that some cleaning system or other can reveal music detail and depth that were previously obscured by embedded grime in a groove. While that does occasionally happen after cleaning LPs that were poorly cared for over some period of years, most often the difference in sound results from reduced background noise. And that occurs when ultra-fine particles are cleaned out of various sections of a groove. Most conventional cleaning systems (Nitty Gritty, VPI, Monks, Okki Nokki, Spin Clean, Autostat, etc.) that are used according to their manufacturers’ instructions will do to a new or previously well-cared-for used LP as good a job as any reputable ultrasonic system (e.g., Degritter, Saidi Audio, Audio Desk System). Where differences in effectiveness vs. the time needed to do a thorough job occur are with badly soiled LPs. Embedded and plated organic material, dirt and other detritus can be difficult to thoroughly remove by using only one system. I make a decision about what is needed for each and every LP I clean. For me, the combo of either Spin Clean followed by Degritter or Okki Nokki followed by Degritter has worked best when dealing with filthy, used LPs. Basically, there’s no secret or surprising musical revelations to any of this. If any LP is totally or at least effectively noise-free, visually clean and is handled carefully throughout, for example, a twenty year period of ownership, a quick cleaning cycle with a Spin Clean or reputable vacuum machine every fifth or sixth play will keep the LP in top condition and remove any slight buildup of groove pollution. Spending big money on an Audio Desk System or Degritter to re-clean such LPs is usually unlikely provide any additional improvement. The biggest benefits of an Audio Desk System or a Degritter are the ease of use and completeness of the systems (i.e., cleaning and drying, with the Degritter in my view being a better design because of its better filtration, water management and sensor subsystems), all achieved with very little labor. The comparative drawbacks/cons are the significantly higher acquisition cost of the machine and somewhat longer cleaning/drying times per LP.
Exactly . . . for many, many audiophiles. Conventional manual and vacuum systems can work extremely well when people follow the directions provided by the device manufacturers. Basically, the only times I’ve come across Spin Clean, VPI, Nitty Gritty or Okki Nokki effectiveness problems have been when users were either doing their own thing instead of following the instructions in the user guide or using their own home brewed concoctions of cleaning solutions or some combination of both. I have occasionally come across home brewed cleaning solutions that worked well, but not often. The most frequent complaint I’ve heard about all systems is the cost of cleaning solution and/or the cost of perishable parts replacement. Based on all the calculations I’ve bothered to do, including the cost of device acquisition and cleaning supplies, cleaning and drying time, etc., etc., a VPI or Okki Nokki system is a very smart choice as long as the systems and parts are well maintained and stored by an owner. When discussing and analyzing the cleaning and drying time factor for audiophiles who have large LP collections (e.g., over 1,500 LPs, with 5-10 new LPs acquired every month on average), shorter cleaning/drying time is an extremely important consideration without a doubt. 10 LPs per month amounts to 80 minutes per month of cleaning with an automated ultrasonic (up to twice that with the Kirmuss system that I don’t recommend) vs. 35 minutes using a VPI or Okki Nokki vacuum system. Over a year, that amounts to 540 minutes difference - nine hours of cleaning. Still, that has to be measured against the fact that Nitty Gritty, VPI or Okki Nokki systems require an audiophile to be manually brushing and/or setting the vacuum wand and/or flipping the LP at each cleaning stage vs. a Degritter that cleans both sides simultaneously and dries both sides simultaneously and all automatically. The catch is that for heavily soiled LPs, an ultrasonic machine user has to add the physical contribution anyway to prep/pre-clean using one of the manual or semi-manual systems for a couple of minutes. I think it’s less a value proposition than a simple choice of a system that best suits a particular person’s household arrangements, LP buying habits, his idea of what constitutes a system appropriate for his needs, and (perhaps most important) his budget. If an audiophile perceives a time sink that is unacceptable, then he can be assured that any of the best manual or semi-manual vacuum systems can and will work perfectly well as long as follows the manufacturer’s instructions accurately and completely.
Hello Vinyl Junkies, I just came across this thread while looking for information on US cleaners. There are some helpful informations to be found here, so thank you! I'm on the verge of buying a Degritter, instead of repairing my damaged Okki Nokki. Yes I know, in terms of comparing prices for an Okki Nokki repair and buying new Degritter not a very reasonable project, just saving about $150 and invest them in a way too expensive machine ... I'm not expecting a huge difference in cleaning results. What draws me in is the ease of use and reduced noise. Maybe placing it in the kitchen and do the cleaning while cooking ;-) One topic I haven't found any helpful information about is, how does the Degritter affect records that were "played wet" in the heydays of Lenco & consorts. So I have a whole bunch of records that look clean at all but are almost unplayable, not distorted or damaged, but sounding like having been recorded close to a comfy open fire. So I suppose this are the wet played ones. With my Okki Nokki I only have a slight success in removing the noise, but most of it usually remains. In theory US cleaning should "go" deep enough into the well and get that filth removed. Can anyone comment on that? Thanks T
To thoroughly clean LPs that were repeatedly played wet, you need four things: lots of time, lots of patience, a good cleaning solution, and either an Okki Nokki or VPI vacuum machine or a Spin Clean plus a good ultrasonic machine (Degritter of course). An Okki Nokki or VPI cleaning platter or one of the SpinClean drying cloths laid out make a good cleaning platform. Brush in a generous amount of recommended cleaning solution (L’Art du Son, Mofi, etc. - there are several to choose from) on one side of an LP, making sure the side is thoroughly wet, and then let it sit for 15 minutes. Vacuum it off on one of the machines and then reclean the normal way. Flip the LP and repeat the process. If using a SpinClean, have a second tank available containing distilled water only os that you can scrub off the solution before treating the second side. When you’re done, use the long/heavy cycle on an ultrasonic to complete the job. During the first part of the process remember to use the appropriate goat’s hair brush to work a generous amount of the cleaning solution firmly into the groove before letting it sit. Wait a full 15 minutes before proceeding to the next steps. I’ve only rescued six or seven played-wet LPs over the years, but that’s one of the processes that has worked for me. If bad sections of groove remain, repeat the process. The alternative is to purchased a label protection clamp that allows you to then wash an LP in kitchen sink. The idea is to use a goat’s hair cleaning brush to scrub in non-oily dishwashing detergent such as Dawn or Sunlight. Soak the brush in body temperature water under the tap, Then use the brush to work in several drops of dishwashing liquid on both sides of a wet LP. Let it sit in the sink (the clamp will ensure the LP surface is elevated) for five minutes, then thoroughly rinse under the tap in body temperature water. Use cheesecloth or a true fine microfibre cloth to blot the LP dry. Then run the LP through a long/heavy cycle in an ultrasonic. And that’s the other process that has worked with some epically filthy LPs and a few played-wet LPs. Good luck.
I like to think my home brew cleaning solution works well. I'm in the 10K LP range now, so need to save time and $ ... lol
The home brew either cleans or it doesn’t. It either does no harm to the vinyl compound or it does. It either reduces static charge or it doesn’t. It either aids wetting or it doesn’t. If a home brew meets all four requirements, then it’s great. The problem is only that no private audiophile has the means or resources to check if his home brew solution actually meets all the requirements much less whether it does no harm to vinyl over long periods of time. If you’ve made a solution that works and meets all the criteria, that’s excellent! In my experience, you’re actually one of the few. Most audiophiles also don’t have sufficient knowledge of materials science and chemistry to know for sure that the concoction they mixed is going to be effective and harmless to vinyl. I’ve seen far too many LPs damaged, often irreparably, by home brewed cleaning solutions.
