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Do I have to decide between having an automatic turntable and a good turntable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Oscillation, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. Classic Car Guy

    Classic Car Guy Forget Scientific & Enjoy the Music

    Location:
    Northwest, USA
    [​IMG]
    ...........................................................................:laughup:
     
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  2. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    What you’re thinking is how the end of “The End” has a really long silence, then there’s this “BAM!” chord, then “Her Majesty”. And I believe it was not listed on the original LP track listing, so it was technically a hidden track.

    I would have thought maybe this was too close to the center of the record to end up being played by an automatic arm, but as another member has confirmed, the side isn’t actually that long.
     
    anorak2 and Adam9 like this.
  3. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Cheap 80's turntable, SL-QD33. Motor-driven electronics-controlled automatic tonearm.
    [​IMG]

    This contrasts to the long linkages seen in others driven by the platter motor and levers.

    Or an SL-MA1's tonearm, an automatic tonearm with a more direct-drive configuration:
    [​IMG]

    Then one goes high end Japan market to Denon's that combine electronic lift with electronic tracking force, and combine antiskate with automatic mechanism with voice-coil style motors.
     
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  4. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    But in every case, there is stuff permanently affixed to the underside of the tonearm. In the above Denon graphic, all the stuff in orange. That’s the point I was trying to make.
     
  5. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Not sure about other TTs, but my Dual just lifts the needle at the end, and the platter stops turning. Basically shutting itself off.

    I assumed this was the norm, as I too grew up with auto TTs :shrug:
     
  6. Adam9

    Adam9 Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Yeah, I've had a number of automatic turntables and have owned a copy of Abbey Road since 1969 and have never experienced premature arm return.
    I may have had a record or two with which this did happen, but I'm not even sure about that, and we're talking about thousands of records.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  7. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    A lot of what you see in the first image is gearing cams that only engage with the small bars coming from the tonearm when performing auto motions.

    The second above is also a Technics. Here's the Denon.

    [​IMG]

    You can have less mass instead of more, because of the substitution of counterweight by electronic forces. The extra inertia around the tonearm pivot is only a detriment to off-center records.
     
    Oelewapper likes this.
  8. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    That really should be sufficient, right? You still have to go to the turntable to turn or change the record, anyway. It’s not like it’s a significant amount of work to move the arm over.
     
  9. Hendertuckie

    Hendertuckie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Belmont, Nevada
    I very much enjoy my Technics SL-10 Full Auto Linear Tracking TT. I use it with a Ortofon OMP-10 cartridge with a OM 30 stylus. Just for the fun of it, I put the OM 30 stylus on a Ortofon Concorde and mounted it on my Technics SL-1210MKII with its Jelco 750 arm, sounds the same to me and I didn't have to jump up at the end of the Lp. I don't use the SL-10 all the time, I'm to much of a traditionalist. Am 68 years old and I'm not as steady as I use to be so the SL-10 waits it turn.
     
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  10. Mike Rivera

    Mike Rivera Senior Member

    Some may need to come to grips that many of us will sit quietly and listen intently, while others play LPs while we do things around the house (talk, cook, etc.). Not all of us are always 100% engrossed in listening all the time. I have a decent mid-fi system and a more entry-level system and have new audiophile records as well as vintage records. I play and enjoy them all on both systems.

    My TTs, Pioneer PL-540 (in the better system) and Sony PS-T15, both offer auto-return and I love that they do. Are there better sounding TTs out there for under $1,000 or even under $500? Sure, but I'm not so critical to miss being able to enjoy the amazing sound I'm getting from these two old TTs. I would never change a tonearm on a TT because I don't care all that much (although I think it's fine for those that do, just like tube-rollers). Some of us feel our systems reach a certain level and they're good-to-go for many years and we just enjoy the music.

    I also grew up when your choices of media were just tuners or TTs and we were taught how to use them as children. My dad originally had Sherwood tube separates and an Elac Miracord, then later changed to a Fisher SS and high-end Dual. I learned how to use and respect both as a child and he encouraged us to use them. To me, music is about enjoyment and if an automatic or semi-automatic TT bring happiness, then great. If you prefer a $30,000 full manual TT, fantastic.

    BTW, I bought both my TTs new in the 1970s and they both work perfectly. The only things I've ever replaced were carts and styli ... been lucky I guess.
     
  11. Lenny99

    Lenny99 The truth sets you free.

    Location:
    Clarksburg WV


    Approximately 6 months ago, as I was in the market for a turntable I gave a similar TT a good look. It was the Music Hall Classic. I liked the looks, and the reviews were good. And like yours it had an end of record auto lift and shut off.

    I ended up with the Audio Technica ATWP7, a fully manual belt drive TT. And part of the reason was that end of record auto lift and shutoff.

    I assumed there was a possibility the extra gears which lifted the arm etc, might effect the performance. And, pluss, it added cost to the product to perform a task for which I was not concerned. I felt it better to purchase a product in which the cost went to the performance I desired.

    And that's why I wouldn't buy an auto anything table. However, if for whatever reason I wanted or needed the auto convenience I'd make that purchase.

    I think that Music Hall would make a good table. And, it's sharp looking.
     
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  12. coolhandjjl

    coolhandjjl Embiggened Pompatus

    Location:
    Appleton
    I’ve a Pioneer PL530. Always wondered about the 540
     
  13. anorak2

    anorak2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    The OMP cartridges themselves are all the same. They "become" an OMP-10/20/30/40 simply by sticking a 10/20/30/40 stylus in. (same for OM, OMT)
     
    E.Baba likes this.
  14. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    Well so far I couldn't be happier with my SL-1310, the thing is a freaking tank and the speed is rock steady, which I think is the main job of a turntable, to turn at constant speed. With the AT-540ML hooked up to it I am finding a lot of joy and moments of pure bliss.
     
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  15. VintageVibe

    VintageVibe Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Joisey
    For fun, just played " Her Majesty" on the fully auto table to test. No issues. There's a very short runout and the arm return kicked in the runout before hitting the label. It's no more of a hidden track then is the end of "The Court of the Crimson King", "Axis Bold as Love" and Sgt. Pepper. I own all originals and have no return issues with any of them.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  16. nosliw

    nosliw It's a hairstyle, not real cat ears :P

    Location:
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Sony's Biotracer and JVC/Victor's Electro-Servo Tonearm technologies share the same technology as the Denon's Dynamic Servo Tracer. I own a JVC with the said technology and being a fully automatic turntable, it's one of the best I've ever used.
     
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  17. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Well, it’s not physically hidden on the disc, which is one of the reasons I have a hard time considering anything on LP a “hidden track” the way something at the end of the CD (or even before the beginning of a CD…) could really be hidden.

    But not listing it on the jacket or label makes it kind of hidden, if you’re not looking at the record itself.
     
  18. VintageVibe

    VintageVibe Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Joisey
    No worries, I understand your point relative to the medium. To me, hidden is the Easter eggs on DVD's.
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  19. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    In this case at least for me it is a complicated one to decide what to call it. I could be wrong but I think all the Abbey Road jackets -or at least most of them- do list the track, so it isn't hidden. However it is fairly tricky, specially if you had it loud.

    After the long silence you would have assumed the record have finished but then you are met with this unexpected loud racket:D
    So, could it be a surprise track?
     
    Big Blue likes this.
  20. Oscillation

    Oscillation Maybe it was the doses? Thread Starter

    I don't think they designed albums to trigger an auto pickup before the side was over...
     
  21. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    No, it is not the norm, I have a Thorens that does the same. You can also buy automatic lifters to add on to manual TTs but most of the lifters I know, are activated mechanically. Which is also the way most automatic TTs work despite comments to the contrary.
     
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  22. Big Blue

    Big Blue Forum Resident

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I thought I remembered that the original release did not list it, but I’ve never had one of those to verify for myself.

    That long silence followed by unexpected pants-****ting “BANG!” was kind of a precursor for some of the hidden track CD stuff artists would do later on, though. :laugh:
     
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  23. Uglyversal

    Uglyversal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney
    That might be the case on the early UK release, it might have been an unintentional error. I am sure someone else can some shed light on that. If that is case it is probably one of the pressings I have but I haven't been able find my UK issue since we started talking about it.
     
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  24. Mike Rivera

    Mike Rivera Senior Member

    From :coolhandjjl: I’ve a Pioneer PL530. Always wondered about the 540

    She's been a great TT, especially considering I bought her around 1978 or '79 (when in college). She was in storage in my closet during my "record purge and replace with CDs" time period. I broke her out about 5 years ago, cleaned and lubed myself (nothing drastic), replaced the cart and she's sounding fantastic. I've had several carts over the years and I'll probably upgrade again this year, but even with a cheap cart she sounds very nice. She's rock steady at 33.3 with a thick and heavy plinth - what's not to like ...

    It's everything you want from vintage equipment. Very happy I kept her ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  25. Michael Macrone

    Michael Macrone a roMance anagram

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Bear in mind that "Her Majesty" wasn't on the final tracklist. It had been spliced out of the medley and then, for keeping, back on to the end of the reel, after the end of the album. It was destined for oblivion until the Beatles heard the result.

    Last year I bought a serviced PL-520, which shares its motor with the 530, though the design is very different. It sounds wonderful.
     
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