Do I need more watts to drive ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2s?

Hi all,
I have ELAC Debut 2.0 B6.2s speakers. They sound great in my current setup (Mo-Fi StudioPhono Pre-Amp with Onkyo 8020 Receiver), but only when at more moderate/loud levels.

I was hoping to improve the sound of them at lower levels and was talking with a salesman who said that I need an integrated amp with at least 100 watts of power, with 150 being best. (Not sure where he got 150 as the speakers are only rated up to 120)

I was looking at the Yamaha A-S501. It's got 100w @ 6 ohm, whereas the Onkyo is 50w @ 8 ohm. (I can't find any spec sheet that lists what the Onkyo is at 6 ohm though.)

Will I see any difference? That Yamaha is at the price point I feel okay with. And has the loudness feature which might also help my situation?

(If it matters my turntable is:
Audio Technica 140 XP Turntable with a Shure M97XE cart with upgraded LP Gear N97xVL ViVid Line stylus.)

Thanks as always!

 

I have the same speakers and they sound good with a 100 watt Sony receiver at lower levels.

Maybe explain more specifically what you find lacking in the sound with your current setup...

 

The "more watts" thing sounds unlikely to me, but the Yamaha loudness control should help:

how to properly use yamaha loudness control - Google Search

 

If that's the case maybe the cheaper Yamaha A-S301 is just as well suited?

 

If you do decide to try another amp, get a good return policy in case it doesn't do the trick for you. Accessories 4 Less often has good deals on Yamaha factory refurbs if you want to save a few bucks. Read the fine print on the return policy though.

 

Perhaps try a big watt Class D amp on the cheap before anything else, might find extra watts are not the problem.

 

Generally you use around 1-2 Watt for normal listening level.
So more Watt is generally not a lifechanging solution

What is missing?
Bass - get a Subwoofer, Elac are a bit high pitched (Yamaha amps as well,be careful)
Slam - you need an amp with higher slew rate
Warmth - get a tube amp

Tell us a bit more about your desired improvement

 

Hard to articulate. But at higher levels I’m getting more dynamics, detail etc. on vinyl whereas at lower levels (morning breakfast say!) it might as well just be a cd playing.

I think the bass is good off these speakers but only at a certain level. I’d say 60 on the dial.

 

More dynamics. Buy a tube amp and give it some nice NOS Tubes.
Tube amps do have a better fine dynamics.
KT120 tubes would be recommendable in your case

And buy a better CD player

 

Hah. Oh I meant my turntable might as well be a CD player at lower levels because all the benefits of vinyl are lost at lower level volume.
Yeah. Just bought the mo fi pre amp.
Either it’s a new amp or receiver or more efficient speakers. Or I just keep what I have and love the one you’re with.

 

a better amp with more robust power supply, bigger capacitor reserves and the ability to increase power at lower loads will make your speakers sound livlier and have more punch at lower volumes.
a parasound hint, nad c388 or yamaha a-s801 would do the job.
a yamaha 501 will not.

 

Thank you! Would you put the Yamaha a-s701 in that lot too?

 

Fletcher and Munson say hi.

Aside from that I would recommend buying the best amp you can afford.

 

the 701 should be fine. it is 4-ohm capable and increases power as the load drops.
Your speakers have a min load at 4 ohms which makes them hard to drive.
One tradeoff for the low cost design of the ELACs is that you need a very good amplifier.

 

Agree. Though I used to be of the belief that as long as one was operating below the max continuous power an amp was capable of cleanly producing that this should not matter. And that they saying "they really start to open up (i.e. B&W, NHT, etc) when you give them a lot of power" was a bunch of BS.

No longer. Over the past 2 months or so Ive been having the "is it worthy of powering my Carver Amazing Silver MK4" (83 dB efficiency, rated for 750 W RMS @8 Ohm) contest?

Well the following amps can power B&W CDM-1SE, NHT 1.5, Advent Heritage, and Sony SS-TL3 just fine. But fail to power the Carvers adequately, even at volumes below (nearly certain, but who knows for sure, volumes were not that loud) what they are rated for. Just did not sound very good at lower volumes.

NAD 326 BEE
Counterpoint NPS-100A
Nak Receiver 1
Sony TA-N55ES
Some TOTL JVC 5.1 receiver at 120Wx2
Yamaha RX-950
Denon DRA-1025 RA

The above are all 130 WPC RMS@8 Ohm or less. I do not consider any of them worthy of powering these speakers, even at lower volumes. When they power any of the other 4 speakers mentioned, differences in sound are minimal/perhaps even undetectable to my ears. But with the Carvers, they just dont sound all that great no matter what the volume is.

Worthy amps
Denon POA-2800 200 WPC@8 Ohm, does not quite double down in power- "worthy enough"
Forte Model 3 200 WPC@8 Ohms, doubles down in power-"worthy"
Innersound iPower 750-"very worthy"
Innersound ESL 800-"very worthy, slightly worthier than iPower 750, has bigger PS and powers speaker longer when shut off"

These results do not make sense with theory, or these speakers use more power than one thinks they are using at "lower listening levels". It is possible that the fact I knew what was what (not a blind AB test) affected results, but I really do not think this is the case. I soooo wanted all those beloved TOTL 90s receivers to "get R done", but they just did not, especially in the lower frequency ranges. Up next to try is Kyocera A-910. 150 W RMS, does not nearly double down in power (more like 1.5x at 4 Ohm), but does have 70 A instantaneous current as well as overload light indicators. I kind doubt I will consider it "worthy" of powering these speakers, but we shall see.

Those Elacs are 6 Ohm, 120 W speakers which I believe is what my Sony SS-TL3 are (the Advent Heritage are 6 Ohm, 150 W).

"I was looking at the Yamaha A-S501. It's got 100w @ 6 ohm, whereas the Onkyo is 50w @ 8 ohm. (I can't find any spec sheet that lists what the Onkyo is at 6 ohm though.)

Will I see any difference? That Yamaha is at the price point I feel okay with. And has the loudness feature which might also help my situation?"

My opinion is yes you will hear a difference(though I admit it is possible you wont be able to tell), especially the louder you listen. I also feel you would benefit even more with more power. Another option is get the Yammie, then add a sub later so you dont need to push the speakers as hard.

That the Yammie gives a 6 Ohm power spec (and the Onkyo does not) is meaningful. My RX-350 (and RX-530, and RX-730) vouch for that.

 

Thanks so much everyone.

 

My 0.02 only of course and YMMV as I tend to listen a little louder. But generally speaking I think that those speakers would benefit from more power, especially if you notice that the lows are lacking or dont sound so great when you turn it up. But you are in a good situation IMHO as speakers are the most important factor to final sound and your speakers are not your limiting factor so you have a nice "bang for your buck" system for the time being.

 

I have the Elac Debut UniFi with the 501 and sound great. I don't know what loudness one needs to have more power but I feel sufficient power is there. I also do have a cheap polk sub to fill in the low frequency but don't feel like I am missing anything. I can't say I have gotten past 11'O clock on the volume dial. I think the 701 should be fine but the 501 seem fine to me from first hand experience.

 

If you’re not completely set on getting a new amp, you might also consider upgrading your speaker cables. It’s never ceases to amaze me the difference a piece of wire can make.

 

Getting the 801s and removing the speaker wires I have for these:
Canare 4S11 Star Quad Speaker Cable Dual Banana to Dual Banana

and then I'm really done toying with this system darn it.
I know, it never ends...

 

While I have never used the Canare Star Quad cabling, it gets great reviews and is a very popular microphone cable choice for people running "as-high-as-high-end-gets" recording rigs.

Soon enough I will see if I can hear a difference between El Cheapo Mediabridge 12 AWG speaker cable and Black Cat Lectraline.

It really never does end! And I also had him scrounge up some interconnects for me as well. Thanks Matt!

 

If the speakers sound not so best at low volumes, then variable loudness like the Yamaha might really help that. My buddy had the same problem-it turned out the speakers are in a really bad spot. Then, since our ears are insensitive to bass, you lower the volume a bit and the bass drops below your hearing threshold and it sucks. See his new correction Buchardt A500s correction curve at bottom, and their calibrated loudness helps a lot as well.
- So measure your setup, even at least with a spectrum analyzer app or something.
- Try repositioning the speakers if feasible and check the measurements
- This kind of problem is NOT truly amenable to being solved by changing electronics or cables or whatever, it's an acoustics problem and a hearing problem.

 

I’ve owned both the OP’s speakers and receiver in the past. He really should consider buying new speakers vs upgrading his amp. The Onkyo receiver is more than capable of driving most relatively efficient bookshelf speakers effectively. The ELACS are good speakers at their price, but I wouldn’t spend $500+ for a new amp before replacing them with more efficient speakers.

 

High efficiemcy speaker sound better at lower levels, and of course, at higher volumes. The Elacs are extremely inneficient. Go Klipsch and you'll never look back.

 

Appreciate the info RE: Speakers. But, real talk. I'm married. And bringing in a new set of speakers isn't going to fly. A receiver is easier for me to swap in lol.
The 801s are definitely the better match for the Elac. The question is do I keep them and the $900 expense or do I return them and listen to them with my old receiver for at least a year or two. Or whenever we move out of our small house and I can buy better bigger speakers.

If I was a single dude living on my own, sure. I'd have giant speakers and a whole room dedicated to this thing. But, that ain't it.

So, the question remains: Do I overpay on the better experience - during a plague with not much joy - or return them and just enjoy my music at louder volumes. And buy a larger/better speaker set later.

I'm going to let the 801s settle in for a week and then A/B with my Onkyo. I am certain it won't be a $900 difference. So the difficult decision will be whether it's worth overpaying.

I will say the Chromecast audio in via digital toslink into the 801 is NIGHT AND DAY over the stereo in of the Onkyo. Not sure if it's because it's a pure digital source that way or because of the 801s dac or both. But, it's kinda scary how good it makes Spotify sound.

For anyone in the future reading this: Yes. Power affects the sound of low efficiency speakers.