Do you accept the new Star Wars trilogy as canon?

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by zinger_ghretzel, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. A bit of irony “Splinter in the Mind’s Eye” was a novel based on a low budget outline for a sequel should “Star Wars” do well but not great in theaters. Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization but it was all written well before Lucas started making up a firm mythology for the films (and well before Luke and Leia were suddenly siblings). It’s now, of course, not part of that Universe which is odd considering it was the first true sequel to the film well before Lucas sat down with Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan for “Empire”.
     
  2. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    Succinct and in a nutshell... and exactly what I've been saying for years; the prequel trilogy has the superior story but inferior filmmaking quality compared to the sequel trilogy's sumptuous 35mm-shot cinematography and superior filmmaking quality but with absolutely no story of any substance to tell, and put together rather haphazardly to boot!

    George Lucas would never have okayed a six-month shoot for any of the prequel films, but with outside screenwriters/directors on board to shore up Lucas' (self-admitted) weak points, the prequels could have been contenders, to quote another film, alas...
     
  3. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Oh, yeah, some fans insist you should watch them in the order the films were released. I gotta say, I am bothered a bit by the visual sophistication of Episodes 1-3, because they're a lot more sophisticated than the 1970s/1980s films were. And so is all the technology we see in the sets and props, which kind of makes no sense.

    Life, the Universe, and Everything!
     
  4. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    To this day I wish Ron Howard had said yes to George when he offered him TPM with a script repolish by Larry Kasdan. Maybe Spielberg for AOTC?

    Ironically i do think George was the perfect choice for Revenge of the Sith. It's clearly the prequel he had the strongest ideas for and it would have been fitting for George to direct the first Star Wars and the (then) last one.

    As for the sequels,there were obviously things that were planned out for this trilogy much of which stem from Lucas' notions for it. The Rey/Kira and Ben Solo/Skyler yin and yang thing was apparently something that was always a part of the landscape,as well as Han Solo's demise, Luke's exile and disillusionment with the Jedi because of an apprentice betraying him. A lot of which was always present .


    I think two big things undermined this trilogy from being the best it could be...

    1)Bob Iger insisting on having the trilogy out and finished by 2019 against the initial advice from both Kathy Kennedy and JJ Abrams. If Kathy and JJ had their way, Episode VII wouldn't have dropped until May 2016. Heck Iger wanted VII out by May 2015! It was a compromise to get Iger to agree to December 2015.which was insane still given what happened to Harrison Ford on the set and the fact JJ and Kasdan had to start from scratch with only the barest of outlines and material from the early Lucas/Michael Ardnt meetings to hammer out a script.

    2) Carrie's sudden death. I think that in the coming years we will get a clearer picture about just how much that event not only impacted IX's development, as well as even VIII's . Keep in mind Carrie died before Rian Johnson could reshoot anything with her. Rumor has it the reason Treverrow left was because Carrie's death forced him to throw out the story he had already written for IX and he couldn't find a solution satisfactory enough for Kathy Kennedy, which led to Abrams having to start from scratch yet again.

    Given the nearly no lead time and lack of wiggle room given to JJ and Rian Johnson,and the chaos the sudden death of one of the main stars of the trilogy and arguably the OT character who had the biggest presence in this trilogy,it's a minor miracle the sequels turned out as well as they did even from a technical standpoint.

    In any case, the prequels are what they are and so are the sequels.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
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  5. That and the fact that the big reveal in Empire is spoiled for anyone living under a rock for the last 40 years
     
  6. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    I think there has to be a statute of limitations for old movies. If anybody doesn't know by now that Vader is Luke's father in Star Wars, "Rosebud" is Charles Foster Kane's childhood sled in Citizen Kane, and that Kevin Spacey is Keyser Söze in The Usual Suspects, hell with them. (Have I also mentioned that Bruce Willis was dead throughout The Sixth Sense, only he doesn't know it?)

    The frequent rumor I heard is that Colin Treverrow wanted to do Rise of Skywalker with Mark Hamill as the primary star and say his character did not die in The Last Jedi. I think the "brain trust" at Disney/Lucasfilm had decided that that was not the best way to go, and they were committed to building on Rian Johnson's story and not the direction that Treverrow fought for. However, this story is disputed at this link:

    Here’s Why Colin Trevorrow Was Fired from ‘Star Wars: Episode IX’

    I think the only people who really know are Bob Iger, Kathy Kennedy, Treverrow, and Abrams, and they ain't talking beyond, "well, there were creative differences." Perhaps someday books will be written that detail the real truth behind what happened, but I think it's fair to say that without a single person in total control, you wind up with a movie made by committee, and that's always fraught with compromises. I try to be positive and say, "well, it could've been a lot worse, and most of the story was entertaining and made sense... in a manner of speaking."
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  7. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Thanks for the link. I kind of buy that wanting to reverse Luke's death was a sticking point. It is curious that for a few months immediately following TLJ's release Hamill was joking in interviews that Luke may not be dead by saying he merely teleported to a nudist colony. Of course the later was a joke,but I do wonder if Hamill was privy to Treverrow's plans to resurrect or somehow undo Luke's demise in his Episode IX. After JJ was hired he sort of stopped floating around the idea Luke wasn't dead even in a joking manner.

    If this was the case, even with Carrie gone,reversing Luke's death was a bad idea and sticking with it was the right call to make. This trilogy was supposed to always be about Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo with the OT trio as supporting characters. Having Luke turn up alive and obstensively sort of take over the role of lead protagonist may have pleased the Fandom Menace types who can't get over Luke's death in TLJ and never wanted a new main protagonist in the first place ,but it probably would have been much worse than the Episode IX we did get IMO.


    Luke Skywalker already had his showcase film and his big send off. To bring him back just to repeat that again more or less would have been wrong. Fan service to be sure,but arguably even worse fan service than what was done in this movie. if that was what Treverrow wanted to do with IX,then I agree with Lucasfilm.

    However once Lucasfilm fired Treverow,they and Iger should have decided to push Episode IX to sometime in 2020 to give Abrams and Terrio more time to polish things script wise before shooting. But the movie is what it is,and what it is is an imperfect film that still is going to make a billion dollars ultimately,which let's face it,is the only thing Disney cares about at this point.

    I have no doubt though,that Carrie's death is one of the main reasons this trilogy's seams are more apparent than with the OT even if the OT also largely was made up as it went along as well. It was clear that Episode IX was always meant to be Leia's spotlight movie and judging from Todd Fisher's recent comments that Leia was to finally be an actual Jedi in the movie and how excited Carrie was, it obviously blew up how IX was originally going to be. By some miracle JJ managed to work that angle in and made the archive footage work well enough to give Leia a smaller but important role, but the climax they were working towards obviously wasn't quite what they shot.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
  8. Crungy

    Crungy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago USA
    Don't forget Art Carney! They should've gotten Jackie Gleason too...
     
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  9. And you’re point is...that no one will ever be 100% happy? Of course not.

    Personally, I prefer not having stories recycled and thrown back at me as new but that’s me.
     
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  10. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    My point is Lucasfilm and Disney needs to stop catering to Star Wars fans. At least the ones that make it a point to go online and endlessly second guess and bitch about every decision. Because they will never be pleased.

    Say what one will about George,he didn't make the prequels for Star Wars fans . He made them more for himself so he could say he did them. And he still made a crap ton of money and did it his way. Yeah he did adjust things based on feedback but he didn't make it his ambition to please a bunch of malcontents that will never be pleased.

    As much as I've enjoyed the new era films for what they are, Disney tried to come at this whole thing wrong in the sense they tried to do "what the fans wanted'. I.E. make Star Wars films that looked and felt like the original trilogy...which is what most of the loud prequel naysayers said they wanted. So Disney did just that and many of the same people who wanted that have decided now they never wanted that in the first place.

    They've made a ton of money no doubt (SOLO not withstanding) and the general audience liked them well enough, but now that the Skywalker saga is done (for now...I'm sure someone will eventually follow up Rey Skywalker's story ) I'm hoping the people at Lucasfilm don't make fan service the priority.
     
  11. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

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    Hollywood, USA
    I think this is one of those "damned if you do/damned if you don't" things where Disney could not win on this. If they held the film back six months or a year, number one there's more potential to lose money (since the interest keeps going up), and number two, it would raise expectations to the point where they could never satisfy the audience. I think at this point, Disney is relieved the film got released on time, and more importantly, it's going to make over a billion dollars. It wasn't that long ago that a few naysayers around here were predicting the film was going to tank. Me, I was conservative and said I thought it would make a profit and would at least make $800 million, and I'm glad that it's been more successful than that in less than a month.

    Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker Is Already Close To Making $1 Billion

    The death of Carrie Fisher was a nightmare beyond belief, not only for her friends and family but also for the production, and I'm positive if she had lived she would have had a major, major role that would have drastically changed the story. (Who's to say that the character in "The Rise of Skywalker" wasn't Leia Skywalker, her real name?) It's a good question as to whether Disney will ever allow copies of those discarded scripts to ever be seen by the public.

    J.J. Abrams has said that the whole experience of The Rise of Skywalker was absolutely exhausting, and that he hopes his next film was going to be a non-effects story, like a simple human drama. I'm reminded that one of his early movies as a screenwriter was Regarding Henry, and that's a terrific story idea that would be relatively simple to shoot and finish. Sometimes, simple can be good, too.

    I don't think that's necessarily true, but I would agree that all of the recent Star Wars projects have felt like "movie by committee" to me, where there's a bunch of guys sitting around an executive board room with bullet-pointed lists of ideas they demand get jammed into the script. On the one hand, I understand that when you risk 2 years and $200 million dollars, the studio has to maintain some control, but on the other, you have to give the filmmaker the creative freedom to make the movie they want to make. As we saw with Solo, the leash at Disney is getting tighter... and even when they get a director they can completely control, like Ron Howard, the results still got bad reviews and made no money.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2020
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  12. Dude111

    Dude111 An Awesome Dude

    Location:
    USA
    I only like the original 3 movies.......
     
  13. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    I accept the new Star Wars trilogy as a canon.
     
  14. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    we ain't gonna see them on BD...
     
  15. tomhayes

    tomhayes Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, Ca
    Huh? You can decide what is canon, just as some dude on the net????

    Canon is whatever the IP owner says it is - even thing else is fandom.
     
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  16. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Maybe they're cañon?:D
    Ja, part of the original idea of 9, right? (Plan 9, ha ha). I sure accepted this one way more than the cliffhanger of Empire Strikes Back which made me literally cuss George Lucas. That sort of thing was OK for weekly Tom Mix serials or whatever, but making me wait 3 years, :realmad::mad:
     
  17. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Jar Jar Binks, that's what you REALLY meant, right?
     
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  18. head_unit

    head_unit Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    Nah, no need, there's an app for that now. Elon Musk developed it in his spare time. It also translates into Wookie and-via extension of The Force-incorporates Einstein's brain. In other news, Musk tweeted Tesla will be developing a new model "DS" which is the size of a small moon and will have "unimaginable power." Vladimir Putin (disguised as Woody Allen) was last seen trying to log in to get on the waiting list. He was unsuccessful as the Securities and Exchange Commission had suspended Tesla's website and were sending out a nano-swarm borrowed from the NSA to find Musk's whereabouts.
     
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  19. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Actually, Attack of the Clones had a 4-month shoot with 6 weeks of reshoots, so they almost hit six months. And I think there was also second-unit shooting going on at the same time by other people. Big, big films with lots of different locations, shot across continents, in different studios, might actually need 24 weeks of shooting: Lawrence of Arabia took more than 5 months, and Gone with the Wind was six months. I believe Apocalypse Now and Heaven's Gate each went over 10-11 months (though admittedly they were out of control). I think at this point the studios are far more concerned if a) the movie comes in on budget, and b) it ultimately makes money. Lucas was a rare indie filmmaker who could finance his own projects and get them released through a big studio, so he kind of made up his own rules.

    On the Star Wars prequels, it's pretty well-known that Lucas did try to get other directors to helm the pictures, but by the late 1990s, I think he was a lot more self-assured and not willing to listen to advice from others by that point. For a lot of reasons, everybody he asked turned him down, which forced him to do it himself.
     
  20. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    I certainly hope someone writes a "secret history of the Star Wars Disney era" in the coming years. I imagine there's an interesting story to be told there.

    Rumors have been going around that JJ's next big project will be making Superman viable as a film property for DC/Warner's. Maybe even a Green Lantern reboot. If true both are huge challenges. If anyone can revive those properties,it's JJ. After Superman Returns,MOS,BvS and JL what Superman needs is a crowd pleasing film and JJ is the master of that asthetic.

    However if that is the case, hopefully he won't write a Superman film,just direct. His Superman: Flyby script was...not good.

    Either way I hope he does take a break from the big tentpole stuff and rechages his batteries.

    SOLO had the deck stacked against it from the start and never was going to make a Billion dollars regardless. It turned out to be a well made movie and fun, but it clearly only existed because Laurence Kasdan wanted to write a Han Solo movie with his son,and it was to sweeten the pot and convince him to help JJ write TFA,and there was always a sense of apathy about a Han Solo origin film among fans.



    I do think through the fact it did as poorly as it did surprised everyone. It certainly surprised me. So I'm sure when TROS opened below projections there was a bit of worry,but I'm sure you are right that they are breathing a sigh of relief now that they've finished the Skywalker saga and they can sort of close the book on the storyline George started and can now take the franchise in a new direction. It sounds like the next Star Wars film trilogy will be set 400 years before The Phantom Menace. Could be interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2020
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  21. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    Location:
    Deep Maryland
    I saw the final installment last night. Have to say, I don't get the howls, although I was never a huge fan. It took all the loose threads and resolved them and the lead actress did a terrific job carrying the film.

    The sequel trilogy is far, far better than the prequels, which are well nigh unwatchable. I remember watching Episode 1 twice, because I couldn't believe it could be as bad as I first thought. It was.
     
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  22. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Yep, we're in complete agreement with you. The audience I was with back in 1999 stared at the screen in disbelief, kind of like the audience watching "Springtime for Hitler" in The Producers. I also completely agree that, for all their faults, the sequels are far better than the prequels. And none of them are as good as the middle films from 1997-1980-1983.
     
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  23. Zoot Marimba

    Zoot Marimba And I’m The Critic Of The Group

    Sure, I accept them as canon.
     
  24. The Hermit

    The Hermit Wavin' that magick glowstick since 1976

    Principle photography on Clones was a standard (for the prequels) three-month affair, from late June through late September 2000, with the main brunt of additional filming taking place over a week or so in late March 2001. There may have been some further additional filming thereafter, but not much and nowhere near six weeks... trust me, I know; I was following it step by step at the time and in actual correspondence with someone who worked at Lucasfilm.

    Not an important thing but just posted for the sake of clarity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  25. KAJ1971

    KAJ1971 Ex-burger flipper/Sapper/book seller, Reg Nurse.

    Of course it's canon.

    Though of course anything no longer made by the old creators and made by fans of it at the time is fan fiction.
    I just watch the ones I like.
    Which up to now is SW, TESB, ROTJ, R1, Solo, Rebels, The Clone Wars and The Manalorian.
    All the rest can go to hell as I'll never likely ever see any of it again.

    Except maybe Leia doing the flying through space thing, because you have to love the thought that went in to it.
    She could have force healed herself a bit too I'd have thought. Bit like Anakin refusing to heal his mother on Tatooine in Clones. Or maybe after OB1 chopped Anakin to pieces on Mustafar he could have offered to heal his legs back on, or at least tidy up his melted head.
     
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