Do you use a sub-woofer ? Is it best to use 1 or 2 ?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Soundlabs, Feb 10, 2019 at 5:04 AM.

  1. tmsorosk

    tmsorosk MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Canada
    Two always sounds better to me but because of phasing issues their much harder to set-up.
    Always felt that 18" driver's had the deepest richest bass that nothing else could match.
     
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  2. Gibsonian

    Gibsonian Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa, USA
    2, easily.
     
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  3. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    +1
    ...and get someone to help, so they can change phase for you as you sit in your listening position. Do each sub separately. They won't be guaranteed to use the same phase.
     
  4. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I think is is more that the manufacturer's want you to buy two subs.

    I agree with you. While a few recordings have stereo bass, by far, the majority do not. Even if they did, if your subs are set to crossover at a low frequency, then it is not really going to matter either way.

    Simple enough. I would opt for one better sub, than tow subs that are not as good.

    Usually the two best criteria for selecting a sub. Works pretty good for selecting other audio components, sometimes, in either case, WAF must be taken into consideration.

    Subs add something to a room that is hard to describe, besides bass. They add a fullness to a room, that quickly becomes missing when the sub is removed.

    I have 99-lb, large towers that play down to just below 40-Hz. at their -3 dB point and I crossover to the sub at 40-Hz. and below.

    I have a large horn loaded sub in the room. It is a commercial sub, so one of them works for a room of about 450 sq. ft.

    Since it is crossed over so low, it is impossible to localize and the sub bass is present all through the room.

    At different times, I have used more than one sub. I think this is fine too. How often to you hear someone say, "He has too many subs in the room"? With subs, the more, the merrier!
     
  5. tommy-thewho

    tommy-thewho Forum Resident

    Location:
    detroit, mi
    I only use 1. Not sure where I'd put another one.
     
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  6. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    I had one. Then I added a second with no other system changes. It is better. Upper bass and midrange is more refined and soundstage is more focused. Sure, they want to sell you more product but I'm inclined to believe that well-regarded and well-established brands – like REL – are not going to resort to dishonest BS to generate extra revenue, because that ultimately leads to loss of credibility and no revenues..
     
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  7. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    I'd go for 2 as many have mentioned because subs can be detected by ear and if you buy only 1 place it centered between your speakers. I'm not a huge fan of big subs as they are often times too slow although that is not a rule and depends on the subs.

    While I can't pressurize my room as it is simply too large, nevertheless I can hear the lows which is all that I want. By the time you can feel the subs in almost all cases it means that the subs are too loud and distort the audio balance between highs and lows. Fine for HT use to blast yourself silly, but not good for music.

    Make sure the subs are sealed and not ported as it's easier to place sealed subs.
     
  8. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. ME USA
    I use two Rythmik F12SEs. I found that after adding the second F12SE there was better balance in my room. Also less localization as the bass now is centered in the room. Before it was slightly skewed toward the left side of the room.

    Rythmik Audio servo subwoofer 12" F12SE Signature Edition
     
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  9. jmrife

    jmrife Wife. Kids. Grandkids. Dog. Music.

    Location:
    Wheat Ridge, CO
    I run dual subs in both my systems. It isn’t a matter of “more” bass but “better”. It sounds more “full” and “round” with two. Seriously good upgrade.
     
  10. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    You are right on the money. This is pretty the whole point of using an extra sub.
     
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  11. apesfan

    apesfan Forum Resident

    More subs the better. I used two Rel Stadium 3s with my old BW speakers and the sound was phenomenal. The only thing with Rels back at the turn of this century was they did not always play with some amplifiers. I went through an incredible journey on wireing the Rel subs. Rel wants high level taps to be used but the grounding wire to be screwed into the amp chassis or to the other L/R terminal. In other words two positive wires from Rel sub goes to left and goes to right and the green groundi ng wire goes to either negitive speaker tap or chassis. All my amps from Classe and Musical Fidelity eventually needed service cause their topology wasn't right for the Rel cable neutrix sstup.
    The answer was to use the pre outs but that defeats the Rel sub speciality. What makes Rels sing is using their hookup in a stereo. Shame cause the few moments they worked with the neutrix cable was glorious.
    Started fresh and sold all and began again..
    Use two subs and wire them at the speaker taps like the speakers thats the best sound. Preamp outs for receivers lfe outputs and for home stereos the high level speaker taps.
    Have fun, John M.
     
  12. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo No music, no Life

    Agreed. You wanna feel them, not hear them being overbearing.
     
  13. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    I use two REL R-328 subs with a Naim amplifier and the high level connections don't play so well with Naim amps due to the way they use the speaker cable for output inductance. One solution is to use REL:'s higher end Blue cables with the inline network for use with Naim amps. What I do instead is connect the speaker terminals to the Neutrik connector. That works great and is actually a bit tidier for me cable-wise.

    Note that I have the sub cable tucked under the speakers a bit, but they are about a 1/2m in length. My speaker terminals have dual banana/spade connectors. I use the banana for the amp connection and spade for the sub connection.
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    It is important to take into consideration of the music that you are reproducing. Some music doesn't have any deep bass (say below 40 Hz.) and you don't even know that there is a sub in the system. Some music, has a lot of deep bass, mainly due to synthesizers and other electronic music.

    People enjoy deep bass because they can feel it. You can reproduce low bass with a nice pair of over-the -ear headphones, but it will not have the satisfaction of experiencing the same music through a subwoofer.

    We do feel deep bass. That doesn't mean that it has to impact the music the way an earthquake would be with a large HT sub.

    It is OK to have bass in a stereo system that can produce tactile sensations. If you are playing certain genera's of music, like Dubstep, then the bass will be more pronounced. That is also OK, because that is the way that the music is designed to be.

    There is certainly such thing as having unbalanced bass that is overbearing and masks the music.

    Unfortunately, we hear too much of that with most stereo set up's, where people do not have the knowledge to properly integrate the sub into the system.

    Every room is different and most people do not have really large subs that can adequately pressurize the room. So most opt for two smaller subs, which is also perfectly fine. In either case, it falls back on the quality of the sub(s) being used.

    Due to room nodes, it may be difficult to properly balance a single sub and two or more subs may work out to a better advantage.
     
  15. apesfan

    apesfan Forum Resident

    Whats higher level blue cable. It looks like the rel cable that came with their subs iirc. I did upgrade to Synergistic cable neutrix and like I said sounded wonderful but lasted a few minutes.
    Had a three way phone call with Ted from Synergistic myself and Musical fidelitys fix it man from North Carolina back in 2006.
    They all blamed the Rel circuitry and said to wire pre outs. That defeated the purpose for me. Rels today may of solved this problem.
    You needed a special wire for your Naims, uumm?.
    All I know is when Rel subs play well with an power amp / intergrated they are great.
    I had two Rel Stadium 3s one for each channel and I miss them but frying amps were more important a deterrent for kepping the Rels.
    Todays Rels are probably better electronic and play well with certain amps. The conclusion was a dual mono amp design was forbotin to Rels. Keep us informed. John
     
  16. spanky1

    spanky1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    I have Legacy Classics for the mains. The tone controls are flat, and that is my preferrence for music listening. Bass response is excellent in my room.

    However, for home theater, I also use a 12” PSB subwoofer. Watching movies, I prefer a slightly exaggerated low-end that I would not tolerate with music.
     
  17. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    https://rel.net/shop/accessories/bassline-blue/

    I don't use the Blue cables. Like I said I avoid the Naim amp issue by connecting high-level cables from the speakers instead of from the amp. Since I have a stereo pair sitting next to the speakers, the cables are shorter and tidier than running from the amp anyway.

    Those REL Bassline Blue cables aren't the ones that ship standard with the subs (except maybe at the top end), and are more costly. $500+ each.
     
  18. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I agree with this as the primary reason to use 2 subs instead of one. Bass from one sub creates a complex pattern of nulls and emphasis throughout any room. Where you sit makes a BIG difference in the bass quality, and there is no place that the bass is flat in frequency response. With 2 subs, the nulls and emphasis is not so extreme and are easy to change with small movements in the subs' locations.
     
  19. apesfan

    apesfan Forum Resident

    Yeah they look like the Synergistic replacement cables that cost $300 bucks back in 2006. Wiring other than the neutrix way defeats the purpose of Rels. They still sounded great in other configurations but the proper neutrix way was unbelievable.
     
  20. McGuy

    McGuy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I have Bowers & Wilkins CM6 S2 bookshelf speakers on Bowers stands. I love them. And to me they sounded great. I got an itch to get a sub because everyone said to get one. Whatever. I ended up doing a lot of research and tons of people recommended the REL. So...found an REL T9 sub on ebay for $500 - perfect condition. I have to say, and I was surprised, it made a HUGE difference adding it. Now, on to the second part of your query - two or one? I talked to my guy at Music Direct, who knew I was NOT going to buy a matching sub from him (because they don't make the T9 any longer) and he definitely suggested an additional sub if I could afford it. So now I am on the hunt for another REL T9 sub...
     
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  21. McGuy

    McGuy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    I bought the Bassline Blue, better than the REL standard cable but the gauge was not very thick. I then bought a Signal Cable REL Neutrik - wow, huge difference over the Bassline for $130! The sub just came alive with the Signal Cable as compared to the Bassline at $450. YMMV. My point is that you don't need to blow that kind of money for a better cable.
     
  22. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    My real point about the Bassline Blue is that it's the only high-level cable that supports the electrical requirements for Naim amps that use the speaker cable for output inductance. It's not the standard Bassline Blue either: you need to order the Naim-specific option. Nevertheless, I have two .5 m cables my dealer made out of Transparent Cable parts and it works just fine connecting them to the speaker terminals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2019 at 8:24 PM
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  23. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    When I had just a single sub, I tried the low level input. I had a shop in England make me a custom DIN->RCA cable so I could connect my Naim HiCap preamp out to the sub. I could not get it to work in an acceptable way. It never sounded right.
     
  24. McGuy

    McGuy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Ah, sorry about that. I get it now.
     
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  25. Josquin des Prez

    Josquin des Prez Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest USA
    Yeah, if I wanted to use the Bassline Blue for Naim it would cost me about $1200 for the two cables I need. I'd rather spend that money on a better IC cable for my phonostage. I'll hear a bigger improvement there.
     
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