Don Rendell/Ian Carr Quintet - Complete Lansdowne Recordings (1965-69)

You're welcome, inspired by your very kind words aimed at a a high quality record put together by an excellent record company, who put their money on the line to bring this product into the world.

 

Have I inspired you to tell me/us that I/we ["the pair" of us] "really don’t deserve anything nice in the first place" because I said regarding a third party that "I am not very positive towards them and that I will not support them because this party does not respect their customers"? You should look carefully at it if you think your reaction is justified. Really.

 

Can we all just focus on the music and not allow personal spats to get in the way, assuming Dean R is who I think it is he's totally sound and a really nice person in the real world and I suspect that as he knows Gerald he's taken certain comments to heart, likewise I'm sure both RiRill and jusbe are nice people, just frustrated by what has been something of a balls up with this release, come on people we're all Jazz fans aren't we?

 

Sure!

Now, down to 300 Euro at discogs for 2 copies by the same newly registered seller (I am keeping the score).

 

I imagine if this is really a genuine mess, it is likely that we maybe will be getting multiple copies from all our pre-orders (I have five in place) and then try to sell them*... wishful thinking.

edit: * at nominal price

 

Honestly these days the Reggae vinyl market is realistically 500-1,000 copies, I'd love to put something out with a good chance of 1,000 sales though admittedly we don't licence from Universal with all their demands and added costs so I'm not sure what the figure is below which a reissue wouldn't make any financial sense, having said that I'm still more optimistic on the sales front.

 

I am, and Gerald and his label are very much who I consider to be friends.
I'm not trying to be contentious, but off-hand and the internet is not necessarily the best place for that.
The reason that this record is limited is because it is so expensive to do. It was made very clear that it would be limited.
If we're going to start saying things like 'I'm going to withdraw my support' to labels who put the investment into products like this, products like this won't happen, and people won't have nice things.
Most of the time a 1000 records wouldn't sell out for something like this.
And the price of pressing 2000 would have been prohibitive upfront, and I suspect if the box sold
I'm also pretty sure that Universal wouldn't let anyone pre-sale on Pledge without already having the license in place - and paid for.
As someone who releases records, I don't think this is a project I would have taken on, the margin is too poor and the outlay too high.I certainly wouldn't risk pressing a second 1000.
I also think the second hand price will be down to £150 within six months.
Ultimately we're all here for the same thing, but making claims that Jazzman don't care for their customers is silly

 

As I think I posted earlier I know one person who has ended up with two copies by doing that so there are probably quite a few others, the trouble is he sees what the flippers are asking and wonders if he should ask it though I think he'd just be happy to double what he paid and get his for free anyway so far he is sitting on the spare.

 

Apologies, I hope I've explained in my reply to Dubmart

 

I think anyone who knows the background to this release, something Gerald's been trying to sort out for twenty years, will realise that it's absolutely about his love of the music and not the money, as we've both posted he's risked an awful lot on this project and he's not getting rich out of it.

My guess is the secondary market price will possibly fall to £150 soon, when people with spares list them, but in six months the boxes will be £300+ assuming no repress and no other label takes it on, I guess we'll see who's correct next May.

Finally I'm just glad to see a Jazz release getting so much attention, that's fantastic.

 

For you that are into this business: which is the reason that reissues such as this* [the criteria to be defined, but let's leave that aside for now] are not sold in a subscription manner. Pre-paid. I would happily pay 90 euro for this box and wait even a couple of years to get it. And if the project fails refund and end of story. I would dearly support such an effort without a second thought, since I know exactly so well that I will not spend 6000 pounds to buy the original records. 1000%

Edit: *as issued by small labels with no large margins to fail

 

Sure no hard feelings at all - unless you do not persuade Gerald to reissue Greek Variations by Neil Ardley and with a purchase priority to Greek buyers whose State old Radio signal is the theme of these variations.

 

I don't know about subscription models, but as Dean said to licence from a major such as Universal you will have to pay a lot of money upfront, also they add many conditions and may even preclude a subscription model or charge more, it's hard to be specific because Universal don't treat everyone or all music in the same way when licencing so both myself and Dean could try and licence the same music and get offered a different deal with different costs and restrictions.

You say that if the project fails then refund, but with vinyl most of your costs are actually upfront before you have a single finished record, the actual pressing cost is quite small compared to everything else so there probably wouldn't be any money to refund.

 

With failing, I meant if the licensing deal is not finalized.

 

I think with something like this - which you have to license from Universal - the issue is that if you do the license, they tend to give you six months to release the record, and if you haven't you then have to re-apply.
I think that the major labels could be easier on this, but from their point of view it would create a lot of work for them.
To me the most interesting thing about this release is that Jazzman could easily have justified selling this for over £100 and it would have probably slowed sales down enough to not make the scarcity and scalping an issue.
If Gerald is paying his license upfront, this would have upped his upfront costs.

 

I see, well it's a bit of a chicken/egg situation, you need the licencing deal to get the money, but you need the money to get the deal and if you already have the money to get the deal then why would you need a subscription model with all the additional costs, also how would you publicise your subscription model to generate enough sales?

 

That's interesting, I was wondering if I was being useless at selling my reggae releases, but it seems that I'm guessing right. I'll be keeping my Early B reissue at 500 copies then!

 

I'm kind of expecting Cherry Red to jump in with a sub par version of these titles, they have good connections at Universal don't they.

 

I'm suspecting that 500 or 600 is going to be my new default figure, not so long ago it was 800 or 1000, selling the last 100 or 150 has suddenly become a real chore, rather discouraging isn't it.

 

Is there a reason for not being able to raise the money before starting the discussions for the deal, in order to get the licensing deal? With the licensor's approval. Unless this will affect the terms of the deal during the negotiations, incl. the fees or withdraw if it is widely spread, the subscription successful and all/most copies pre-sold?

 

It should be, but somehow I keep doing it!

 

Morally and perhaps legally I'm not sure you can sell a subscription with no agreement to actually licence the music in place.

 

The problem there is the huge amount of administrative and financial overhead that goes along with that. It all costs money and adds financial and client satisfaction risk.

 

from Forced Exposure: "Thank you for your order and for your patience while we checked stock. Unfortunately the label has confirmed that this title is no longer available and cannot be restocked. Your order has been canceled and you have not been charged. We apologize for any inconvenience. "

4 pre-orders left.

 

This has been posted on the Discogs page, it gives some more background and DOES hold out some hope to people who missed out:

"In response to some of the comments below from frustrated users, from Jazzman and myself (project manager of this release):

Jazzman had been trying to license these five rare LPs as a "dream" reissue project for many years. It took a long time to persuade and secure publishing/mechanical/artwork rights from Universal and at the time of finally brokering a license (around a year ago) Jazzman was unsure of precisely what the level of demand might be for such an expensive box set. The license cost was astronomical before even considering the manufacturing cost of lookalike flipback sleeves and textured slipcases. 1000 copies were agreed upon primarily because Jazzman LPs are pressed in runs of usually just 1000 apiece. The inked deal sadly does not allow for represses and to do so requires another contract to be agreed. Jazzman is hoping to be able to press more of these LPs in 2019, possibly even just as individual sealed albums, but this is wholly dependant on the agreement of the license holders. As many know, major labels are often laissez-faire about the material they own until it begins to sell through third-party deals like this one and, now that the high demand for this box is more evident, it's possible that Universal will want to release a similar repress themselves; not allowing any other independent label a look-in.

Distribution into retail is not controlled by Jazzman, of course. If some stores scored 50 units and others none, that's down to the bulk distributors. I should point out that this item was made available for pre-sale, directly from Jazzman, in September 2018. Once the copies actually arrived with Jazzman HQ in December and were announced online, they unexpectedly sold out in minutes. Jazzman is staffed by one (Jazz) man, however. He has no PR, research, sales or marketing teams to assess exact demand nor immediately respond to huge influxes of emails, social media messages etc. Apologies to those who asked for copies too late and didn't get a timely response. Jazzman has been somewhat inundated. Hinsight is 20-20, as they say. We hope that Jazzman can secure another pressing as soon as possible.

Bones
www.grandvinyl.com"