DSOTM.. SACD vs. Redbook.. Redbook doctored

I am the crazy fool who asked in this thread if Redbook version of albums also being released in SACD (as a hybrid or as separate versions) could be doctored to sound inferior to SACD...

Well, this newsgroup post seems to indicate that the Redbook layer of the DSOTM hybrid-SACD disc is louder and suffers from digital-clipping (follow the thread if you are interested).

Sorry if that was brought up in the past... I searched but could not find a reference.

 

Interesting.

Can anyone confirm that? I have not bought that SACD yet.

 

Hey Steve, you are up early

 

Hope those quad Creedence masters weren't anywhere nearby....!

 

This reminds me of some of the earliest CDs. The were often carefully leveled to have the loudest part of the performance reach the digital maximum, without applying compression. Of course one could always apply compression in the analog domain, but they might have refrained from doing that in order to not degrade the sound quality of the (then) new medium by using unnecessary equipment in the signal path.

 

Can't count the times that's happened to my sister, who lets the hounds sleep with her, something I would never allow. I toss and turn enough without knocking any mutts off the bed!

About DSOTM...I played both SACD layers, didn't hear anything amiss. The redbook I only played the very end of, to hear if the 'orchestral' bleedthrough that can be heard as the hearbeats fade out and the hiss level rises was still there(it is, but can't pick it up on the multi-channel mix, for some reason, presumably because it's only on the stereo mixdown master).

ED

 

"I examine these differences in the June issue of Stereophile, BTW.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile"

Should be an interesting read.

 

Thanks Steve. Whom can I petition at Sony Music to hire you as their Chief Overseer of Mastering?

 

Forget Sony! Let's try EMI instead!

 

OK

 

The suits like it that way. They test the CDs on a boom box in their offices I assume.

I shouldn't be so cynical...

 

I have several SACDs where the redbook is louder than the DSD layer.

I love how you put it Steve... "The DSD layer is usually unmolested."

 

It was discussed here by the time the SACD came out here. Yes, the CD (redbook) layer it is maximized to the point where it reaches 0-db very early on and hits it often throughout the remainder of the CD. There is a screen cap of the waveform "Money" starting on page 4. The MFSL didn't reach it's highest peak until near the end of "Eclipse" and that was at some 65% or so (the exact value was discussed in the old UDI vs. UDII thread from late last year).

Actually, that happened pretty rarely. A few did, and Steve's stuff did, but most of my old CD's top out at maybe 60-70% - that's it. The only other old ones I've got that do go to 100% are some of A&M's Audio Master Plus series of releases back in the mid 80's. Like a few of the Police CD's and one of my Chuck Mangione CD's. As you say, compression as it's used today was not used on those releases. However, they were just turned up so that almost every beat tops out at 0-db. If the snare was hit just a little harder a few times, well, too bad - it got leveled off with all the other hits. The sound is not bad, but I find the LP's of those releases to be tad more dynamic.

Joel

 

Hmm, 70% ? OK, that's roughly -3dB, right? That's fine with me, as long as they don't hit 0dB often.

I have a Supertramp CD from 1985 (Brother Where You Bound) that hits 0 dB exactly once. It was mastered by Bob Ludwig if I remember correctly. I read there is a remaster of it now, I guess it has a much higher average level.

As Steve says, we will see a bit of history repeating. When the tools become available, mastering engineers will see the need to justify their jobs and tweak the sound according to the specification of company executives.

 

A ton of internet 'audiophiles' have raved on and on about how the new Redbook layer is absolutely the best 'CD' version that has ever been released of this album.

The first day I got the album, I listened to the Redbook on the PC at work. I did think it was the best-sounding CD version I had heard.

Then I took it home and listened to it on my main system....a few weeks later (why listen to Redbook at home).

The s/n ratio is the best I have heard from this album on CD, but the disc is flat sounding. The drums in particular (often) sound lifeless to me.

The climax (Eclipse) is certainly anti-climactic in the new flattened version of the album.

I'm becoming a bit suspect of 'internet audiophiles'.

 

I'm very confused about all this (so what's new ) - I'm looking at the waveform of the Money on the Red-Book of the SACD-album and it doesn't look anywhere near maxxed out (I'm using a demo version of Spark XL on my Mac) - then I compare it to the Red-Book layer from the SACD Money Radio edit promo I have and that looks more aggressive but neither look like the other waveforms I've seen posted :dazed: &

Am I doing something wrong - should I use a different application to look at the waveforms ?

All the best - Andrew

 

I understand what you mean by that...but STEVE's discs sound great everywhere! I like to play them on boom boxes so people can hear the difference even on an inferior system. If you can hear it on there-- you can hear it on a good system.
Doug

 

Using another application Amadeus on the Mac I get the following results for an analysis of the waveform of the album version of the Red-Book Money

Code:

.                                    L              R

Minimum Sample value		-0.5433	        -0.497
Maximum Sample value		0.5634	        0.5162
Peak Amplitude		        -5.14dB	        -5.906dB
Possible Clipped Samples	0	        0
DC Offset			-0.015%	        -0.01%	
Minimum RMS Power		-84.13dB	-77.32dB
Maximum RMS Power		-15.07dB	-16.03dB
Average RMS Power		-21.89dB	-22.82dB

RMS Window Size set to 10000 pts

All the best - Andrew