European Users, Phono Pre Needed

Hey everyone,

First of all, I'm not obviously leaving users from other parts of the world outside of this discussion, but I opened a thread like this on other two forums and one user suggested that I was having issues finding the phono pres users were recommending because most are US based, hence why I mentioned Europeans on the title. My budget is tight so I need to find a gem that is made over this side of the pond or at least has good distribution here. The used market is also not discarded at all btw. Here's a copy/paste of the thread I made:

I've been listening to my collection for years with a pair of B&W DM305, a Marantz SR73/Denon AVR/Pioneer SX408, Rega P3 2016 w/ a Goldring E3 (MM) and a B&W ASW600 (The Rega is a new addition and the Goldring is an upgrade I made about 2 years ago or so).

The amps are a lot because I have been swapping, but it's a pretty much middle of the road/low end system.

I have the opportunity to buy my uncle's setup and will do it around next week. It's as follows:

Amp: Forté Audio 4k
Preamp: PS Audio 6.0
Speakers: B&W 804 Matrix

The only thing I'll keep is, obviously, the P3 and the sub replacing everything else.

There's an issue though. The phono pre-amp on those PS Audios was optional and my uncle didn't give two cents about vinyl in the mid 90s like almost everyone else so I need to buy one separately.

Now, I'm totally new to buying phono pres so I'm not sure what to look for. I don't want to go broke so I'm looking for the best option at around the €200-400 mark. Is this realistic? I don't want to buy a phono pre that won't let me enjoy that great setup at it's full potential so I'm not sure if I need to go higher than that.

Also, I know my cartridge will then be the worst part on the setup, but I'll probably leave that for later. I don't know if I'll ever buy an MC cart, so if that's something that makes the price higher and/or narrows down my options considerably, I'll be happy with a MM only phono preamp.

I'm looking at snatching one this Black Friday, but the used market is also an option.

Thank you so much in advance!

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Since opening the threads, I narrowed down my options to the Rega Fono MM, Musical Surroundings Phonomena II (used), Arcam rPhono and maybe the Cambridge Duo. Now, even if all you have to say is "pick this one off of your list", then please do. I'm also looking for new suggestions, ofc. Is there any piece of gear that I'm missing that it's easily found here in my price range?

Thank you everyone!

 

A Grahame Slee Golden Era 5 is within
Your budget, if you buy ,used.
Rothwell make one new, in your budget.
IFI is also an option, I used one for quite a while, although some question their reliability.
Rega,s are popular again pre owned.
Good luck!

 

I own a Musical Surrounding Phonomena II+. I don't think it's much different from the original design. The circuit board was relayed out, but few of the circuit components were changed. It's dead quiet and very versatile. In my mind it's only shortcoming is the maximum gain that it will output is 60 dB. There are other phono stages that have gain upwards of 68 dB and higher. If this suits your needs, it's a great little device. What it offers is a huge range of both gain settings and load settings. It's a device that allow you to play with different setting to find the optimal settings for your system. There are literally thousands of settings. It's a device you play around with for few days methodically changing the settings until you find the right setting. At some point, things just get to point where you just decide that it isn't going sound better and you never touch it again.

 

A Rega Fono MM would suit your deck well, but it’s not an end game phono stage, in my view. You might want to look at getting a used one (€100 ?) as a temporary step and then think about trading up later as you improve your system. I haven’t looked at prices but a used Rega Aria would enable you to make a big phono stage upgrade (? €800 new). I’ve no personal experience of them, but Graham Slee has a fine reputation, as Thorensman says.

 

I have the recently released IFI Zen Phono Preamp and think it sounds great, 170 Euros new.

 

You should find a used Mk1 or Mk2 Trichord Dino in that price range. Another good Phono to add to the list of good suggestions by others.

 

Croft Phono RIAA, getting one myself within a couple of weeks.

 

I have used my Arcam rphono for 2 years now, great phonostage ! I also use a Project s2 tube box which is good and around the same budget. Have tried the Dynavector P75 in the past and compared it to the Arcam, hardly any difference and the Dynavector was €250 more. Also had the original Gramamp2 (Graham slee) which I didn't like. Imho it will take a €1000 phonostage to beat the Arcam.

 

Thank you so much for your input!

I am in a bit of a hurry so I can't wait to find great deals, unfortunately. Right now, the Era Gold V can be found used for close to €500 so that goes over my budget unfortunately.

The Rothwell is now on my list that keeps growing fortunately (or unfortunately since it only makes me more confused ahahah).

I read good things about the new IFI Zen Phono but it lacks some adjustability, unfortunately. For the price though, I think it's really good. But if I can spend double or triple that to get something better, I will.

The Rega is on my list too, thank you!

The Phonomena is high up on my list alongside the rPhono. It's adjustability and the amount of people who recommended me makes it one of my first choices. Unfortunately, there's only one unit being sold here in Europe and I'm still trying to reach the seller.

Thank you for sharing your experience with the Phonomena.

Yeh, for some reason, the Rega is not high on my list. I don't like their "easy" for the customer approach. The plug n play mentality. I like their tables and how they sound and look, but that's pretty much it. If I can go with another brand, I will. Thank you!

Just talked about it at the beginning of this post. It's also being considered, thank you!

Found one and it is being considered. Do you own one? Thank you!

Thank you for the recommendation but, unfortunately, it's more expensive than I can afford right now

The Arcam is one of my main priorities and you just helped me want one a bit more ahah. Right now, it'll be either the Arcam of the Phonomena. The rPhono's adjustability makes it a great buy imo. Thank you!

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Any other suggestions or experiences with units already discussed here are more than welcome

 

@dastinger

I own a Mk3, although I don't know how much of a difference there is, the Dino is a great Phono pre, just does everything well and was an upgrade for me when I replaced my previous phono stage. The Mk1/2s are just more abundant in your price range.
There is, should you choose to do it, an upgrade path for the power supply too to improve the sound, which I think might be usable for any mk model dino.

 

Lehmann Black Cube SE should be within your budget used. Beats a Dino in my experience though didn't compare head to head. The Dino is good though, be happy to own one again.

 

You can't go wrong with a Heed Audio Questar or Quasar depending on your cartridge. At least not ín this prince range.

 

+1 for a used Lehmann Audio Black Cube.
A reference.

 

Thank you for your input! Unfortunately, the cheapest one I can find is almost €700 shipped. A lot higher than I'm willing to spend, unfortunately.

Thank you so much for your recommendation. One of the reviews I read said that fans of jazz wouldn't be disappointed with the Heed, but should look elsewhere for better value. Obviously it's only one reviewer saying this, but my collection is 80% jazz :/

 

Sorry for the double post but, so far, my list is topped with the Arcam rPhono and the Phonomena II that I can get for about the same price.

Both look pretty good on paper, users have recommended me both and reviews are glaring for both as well. I think they were at the same price point too so I wouldn't be surprised if they're toe to toe.

Anyway, I never worried about input capacitance. Always used integrated phono pres so there was not much I could do. The thing is, my cart right now asks for a capacitance between 100 and 200 pf. The cartridges I think I would upgrade to in the future are almost all on the 150 to 200 range. From what I understand, I need to also add the interconnects capacitance to this, correct? So, the Phonomena offers 200 and 300 only while the Arcam offers 120, 220, 340 and 440. Do you think that this should be a decisive factor? Will I ever need all this options or the 200 and 300 are enough?

Thank you in advance!

 

To correctly load.
Disconnect white_/blue wires from cartridge unless headshell is detachable
Using a capitance meter measure left turntable lead.
Say its 50pf, add say 100pf ( phono stage)
Gives 150pf.
Now we need to add 50pf assuming we need 200pf.
Using a Y rca type connector to say left channel of phono stage.
Now, using a spare rca plug, solder a 50 pf capacitor from centre pin to ground.
Add to your adaptor. Plugging left channel turntable into other part of Y adaptor.
Job done!

 

Thank you much for the explanation.

If I understand correctly, given that my cartridge asks for a maximum of 200pf and that the Phonomena alone provides those 200pf, it should be a deal breaker, is that correct?

 

Should be fine. Capitance does not have be exact
I merely wanted to explain adding
Capitance is cheap and easy.
I make a selection, and try out for most pleasing results.
All part of the vinyl experience.
Fine tuning mm,s pays off.

 

t

Thank you!

Yeh, adding capacitance seems to be easy, but subtracting does not ahah and that's what I seem to need. Apart from probably being fine, my assumption is correct, right?

Btw, in the mean time, I took my multimeter and measure the capacitance on my P3 following your instructions:



Isn't this really low? I run these cables through a Mono switch I made and if I measure the capacitance on the end of the other cable (the one that comes out of the Mono switch box), it only adds about 1pF. Do I need to do any math or does this actually mean the Phono path on my P3 only measures 12-13pf that I need to add to whatever the Phono stage provides?

 

Imho that is correct, personally I would never buy a phono stage that has 200pf as lowest capacitance setting, unless I would only use mc cartridges. I even bought the project because it has a 47 setting whereas the arcam has 120 (which is still ok). And yes, you add the cables for total capacitance.
If you are considering using AT cartridges, I would definitely stay away from a 200pf phonostage. Arcam might be ok with AT carts but ONLY if you have low cap interconnects (way below 100pf). I found that too high cap with AT gave a slightly boosted (even a bit harsh) upper freq.

 

After posting, I read another user here saying that Mike Yee (the creator of the Phonomena) told him that they indeed had 200-300pf options only but that, down the line, they changed it to 100-200pf but did not change the information on the back where the switches are. Now I need to know if the unit that I found for sale is one of the newer ones.

Btw, I'm really curious about the readings on my multimeter. That can't be right?

 

Some are sold on ebay at 490€ shipped from Italy, the Black Cube Statement can be found for 360€.

 

There are two Lehmann phono stages cheaper than 700 €.

lehmann black cube | eBay

Lehmann Audio Black Cube Statement Phono Pre Amp 379 €
Lehmann Audio Black Cube Phono Pre Amp 499 €
or
Lehmann Audio Black Cube SE Phono 729 €

 

Seems very low. To measure, first disconnect the cartridge at the headshell ( just disconnecting headshell cables is ok). Then measure with your meter one rca/cable connector at the end that would go into the phonostage. You put one on the central pin of the rca and the other on the shield of the rca connector. Did you measure it that way ?

This is with a guitar cable to give you an idea, couldn't find a photo of an rca cable being measured....

 

Thank you for the follow up on this, but you made me more confused ahah. You recommended the Black Cube SE specifically. And I can't find the SE below €500 shipped. Could you please provide a link?

The normal Black Cube and the Statement are also great phono stages is that it?

Ahah, I feel really dumb now. I haven't used my multimeter to measure capacitance in a while and totally forgot where the cables went on the multimeter side (there are four inputs). I used the wrong two, but since a measurement was actually given, I didn't think much of it.

Today I used the correct inputs on the right and it measures around 120pF from what I need to subtract 20pF that the multimeter reads by default. So yeh, it's the usual 100-105pF most phono cables have. I really need to take the Phonomena out of the equation unless I find out in the mean time that the version the store has for sale is the one with "corrected" values. Oh well, I really though I had already decided.

So now I have the Arcam on the list. The Rotwell has 150pF so it's already over what I need when adding the cables' 100pF. I'll just wait @Tartifless and @Turntable Fan enlighten me on the Lehmann units and I'll make a decision.

Btw, what are your favourite genres? Just curious to know if the Arcam fits my tastes.

Thank you!