Experience with today's hi-end integrated amplifiers?

Hey @Steve Hoffman , if you ever become curious, then check out our thread on high-end integrated amps (mostly solid state!!). If you ever have the desire and opportunity, then it would cool if you evaluated the T+A PA 3100 HV. Supposedly, the high voltage design is appealing to those who favor valves. Should Audio Note beware!? Haha.

 

I prefer integrated amps for a variety of reasons, one is space, one is simplicity. I have friends, whom I help make audio decisions from the very inexpensive to the very expensive (up to $100k, which to me is just getting a little to crazy but what the heck, if you got it spend it!) So much goes into matching in a system that I think first understanding what kind of sound you are after is really important regardless of which path you take. What sound qualities do you value above others, dynamics, resolution, timbre, soundstage...? Of course its hard to know this without experimenting and listening. If I wasn't prepared to really take the time and effort to properly match all components, down to cables, what components sit on, and all the other details, then I think integrated amps are a smarter choice. If components are properly matched, I have heard $10-15k systems sound pretty damn close to much more expensive and elaborate systems (also properly matched.) What I have noticed there, is that if you want realistic SPL and scale, then you do need to shell out some bigger dollars, but I have certainly had the experience where I very much prefer my setup to many extremely expensive setups, because of either poor matching, or because the owners had difference preferences than I did. Many people are chasing ultimate resolution, but I find those systems are not so much fun.

I tend to agree that you get more for paying more, with the exception that paying more requires more attention and effort into every piece of the system, large or small. But I will also add that my $2500 Yamaha amp has provided more fun, enjoyment, and music than many more expensive pieces that have rotated in here for fun (borrowing from those with bigger pockets!) Given my preferences, that is. If the OP ends up with high dollar integrated, as long as it matches well with everything else, it should be very good indeed, but whether the increased costs are justified or reasonable is really a matter of individual relavence. I certainly don't think you need to spend $10k for an integrated amp to be in the 'high-end'.

 

Sorry in advance, but I’m going to add a note of caution, which I hope is unfounded but needs saying.

I’ve had all kinds of set ups, big and small, mid fi to full on high end, monster power solid state, flea powered SET valves and the speakers to match. I’ve owned a lot of kit and been able to borrow plenty more.

One of the many things I’ve learned is to be careful what to expect from an amplifier upgrade. Let’s just assume that you’ve got speakers integrated properly into your room (because let’s face it that’s easily the biggest upgrade or system limiter you can have).

Then what you’re left with is how well matched the amp is to meet the needs of the speaker across the frequency/ impedance range, and the amount of headroom your amp has.

If you’ve already got a good match with enough headroom then no matter the design or cost of your next amp there is only so much it can squeeze out.

The nice thing about your Focal Diablos (I’ll declare they’re not my cup of tea, but...) is that they are very clear and transparent and not that hard to drive (hence many people match them with valves). So what I’m saying is will they really benefit from having for example an amp with 20% more dynamic headroom? I expect not.

I suspect you could buy an amp with oodles more power and hear a difference in sheer dynamics, but what I really expect you to hear are differences in tone and emphasis which are easily mistaken for absolute improvement.

Personally I would be very careful matching a SS amp with Diablos - their highly resolving tweeter can sound bloody awful and forward sounding with the wrong amp but sweet with another (again hence some people prefer valves to take this a little and add a bit of 3rd harmonic body to the sound).

I guess what I’m saying is demo widely with your own kit before even thinking about a purchase, and be careful with your expectations that the magic amp is out there to unleash a gigantic leap in sonic quality. But like I said to begin with, I hope I’m being too cautious.

The stories I could tell of the dreams I had of the potential sonics the night before top of the range Krell, Audio Research, Kondo amps turned up the next day, only to be brought back down to earth...

 

Ok, I'll work on it. Thank you! I'm quite fascinated by the trend in integrated amplification and it's a stretch to compare head on with full blown world class Audio Note, but I think your impression would be valuable.

I'm not sure how to put you in touch with the US sales manager to arrange for shipping, etc, but presumably I'll figure that out if something's going to happen.

 

I would absolutely expect a gigantic leap in "sonic quality" when moving up from very good, value-oriented high-end separates, to a borderline all out assault on what's possible in a single chassis line pre/power amp. I don't think it helps to make reference to magic. It's engineering. We could presumably take the PA 3100 HV as an example and find that the R&D and execution stands out. How many pricey parts and pricey design decisions have been made which simply aren't feasible in far less costly gear? Sure, there's no guarantee that a given component lives up to expectation. That's part of why this thread is here.

That said, no way I'd make all the financial sacrifices necessary to acquire the likes of a T+A, Vitus, or Gryphon unless there was a result to justify it. Who would?

John, what has been your experience as you've upgraded amplification all way to the limits?

 

Any consideration for Simaudio MOON 700i? I believe the MSRP is now $14,000USD.

 

Yes. Generally speaking. Thanks! I'd like to track down some reviews of the Vitus RI-101.

I'm personally attracted to the notion of a solid state design which would capture the attention ultra high-end valve amp (separates) audiophiles, such as Steve. With any luck, we'll attract some feedback from a few fortunate folks who've experienced the very best. I've escalated a plan to get a PA 3100 HV into Steve's hands. We'll see.

 

And also there's nice used ones if you must respect a budget, around $1200 can buy you something nice.

 

The ultra high end integrated amps we're focusing on have MSRPs in the $12,000 to $25,000 price range. The idea is, at least for me, to upgrade sonic performance beyond the separates I currently have. It would be valid to compare, say, the Vitus RI-101 or Gryphon Diablo 300 to the T+A PA 3100 HV. Huge price difference! Further, would the Vitus and Gryphon both easily surpass my Cary Audio amplification?!

 

I use an Esoteric I3 Integrated in my home office. A $12,000.00 integrated when introduced in 2011. Sweet sounding unit, 300 WPC per channel into 4ohms, and 69 pounds of Class D amplification!

 

In a word MORE... more detail, more presence, more of the ability to make me stop whatever I am doing and listen, more hearing things I never heard before,such as a piano that I’d never heard before on a tape when I have the tape, vinyl and CD of the piece.

Also, let me be clear... I am not at the limits. I have spent a fair amt. of time with an M9 (I have an M8) and Gaku ons which, architecturally, are very close to the Kensei and the same speakers I have. There is not very much difference (of course there is some, plus double the power) even though its approx. double the cost of my system and Gaku-ons are definitely more than double the Kensei as is the M9 to the M8.

One other thing, if your other components are not of the same class AND have the synergy, then you may not get the full benefit of the amplifier upgrade.

The other thing is that I am very lucky to have wife I do. She wanted the M8 for Valentines Day and she suggested ditching the dining room stuff to make room for the second system. Eat your heart out about THAT

 

Refinement. It's hard to describe. Well, it's maybe not hard to describe, but it's not really possible to convey. Some things must be experienced first hand. In our hobby, the descriptions are all relative. I can try to describe the change in transparency and immediacy when upgrading from entry level power conditioning to the Shunyata Denali, for example, and anyone is free to believe that they get the same experience with a $5.99 power strip. Likewise, I can believe that my system "punches above its weight" to such a degree that a major component upgrade has so little value that it couldn't possibly be worth it. Ha!

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Yeah, I'm a proponent of trying to put components on the same level. I suppose an integrated amp of a given caliber solves the line pre/amp synergy. My digital front end is very good, I think. Will have to find out if speakers deliver. If so, then you get down to small adjustments that can make all the difference. Interconnects. Speaker cables. And, of course, the room has to be sorted out, etc.

 

Then prepare for disappointment. Or to kid yourself after spending a lot of money.

 

Ah, yes. Either you are correct or, alternatively, you are correct.

You'll find plenty of company though. Wonder what you'd tell John from just upthread? Or Steve Hoffman. Or hundreds of other forum members? Anyhow, feel obliged to start a thread on how so many have been duped. Make an argument. Win hearts and minds.

 

Srajan Ebaen also suggests, a paragraph later in his review, that to fully appreciate an all-Gryphon system a person also has to really like Gryphon’s house sound.

 

That fact is the same for any single manufacturer system. How many on the forum have all Audio Note? In any event, I'm only interested in integrated amplification. Not D to A. Not phono pre (I have no turntable).

 

Oops I was genuinely intending to be helpful. It’s so easy to get carried away and then disappointed, I’ve been there and I’m sure many others too.

Gigantic leaps from the fine set up you’ve got are more likely to come from room and/ or speaker upgrades, rather than an amplifier, unless you’ve got one now that doesn’t match at all, but that’s not the case.

Obvious YMMV and so best wishes for your demos and eventual choice.

 

I'm almost 100% vinyl on my main rig. I do have a CD/SACD player, but it's rarely used.

Any IA would have to have a phono MM/MC input (mine does). I should say however, I've always been fascinated by trying a Power amp with a phonostage that has a volume control.

 

I no longer have separates. I have a couple of vintage receivers that I use in rotation along with a Denon 100 year anniversary integrated, a Yamaha A-S3000 and a Jolida 102b. I do not miss separate components. I am more than happy at the types of performance offered by these integrated amps.

 

Reminder. Line stage matters. I do reject the notion that power amps are less important, but pre amp as well? Any weak spot kills the potential of the whole.

No one posting so far has lived with SLP 05 afaik. I thought Dennis Had designs were well regarded? Anyhow, my amplification is certainly in line with any rational expectation at the price. Yet I'm not in denial that there are several steps on the path to full blown reference. Both pre and power.

If the T+A or Vitus, etc fail to transform my system then I would pass. Much to learn and discover!

 

That Yamaha sure is well regarded! I'm looking to beat my separates though. Don't doubt the A-S3000 would be a game changer for many on the forum. Enjoy!!

 

For those of us who’ve been fans of integrated amps and who’ve benn buying and using integrated amps since the ‘70s, the attractions of separates ceased to be tempting a while ago. My own forays into separates from Rowland, Levinson, Naim, Yamaha, Audio Research, T+A and Simaudio have been fine and enjoyable, but the old attraction of separates as a superior technical choice disappeared, to my ears, a couple of decades ago or more. My current favourite is LFD - the NCSE series in particular.

I’ve never had a chance to live with the Gryphon Diablo 300. I’ve auditioned it in London, but the last time I heard the thing was at least three years ago. I find the Gryphon house sound to be overly controlled, so it’s not for me. I personally prefer the freer-sounding Simaudio Evolution 700i and my own LFD NCSE MKII. At the time I auditioned the Gryphon, I also auditioned the Luxman L-590 AII. I thought (and still think) that the Luxman was more appealing in every way. The latest iteration of the class A L-590 is on my radar again, and I may purchase one to replace my LSF NCSE MKII.

A friend owns the Pass Labs INT-250 and the Levinson No. 585. I also listen to the No. 585 every time. I go. Into Altronics Stereo in Toronto (Ron or Rob immediately switch over to the thing every time I walk in the door - they know I like it and they know I’m slightly tempted by it). They’re both wonderful integrated amps. To my ears, the Levinson does everything that T+A does, but with a slightly more appealing and slightly more realistically presented midrange on all material. Another friend who belongs to our music listening group things the Levinson is truly awful - he loves the INT-250 and my LFD - and begs the guy not to use his No. 585 whenever we’re over there. By startling contrast, another long-timer in our group recently acquired a Yamaha A-S2100 and regularly impresses all of us with sessions at his place (driving his Wilson Benesch speakers).

I liked his A-S2100 so much that I bought one for myself. In my opinion it is, hands down, one of the best values in integrated amplification today. To my ears it produces 90-95% of everything that the Simaudio Evo 700i, Pass INT-250, the Gryphon Diablo 300, and my own LFD NCSE MKII produce but at a fraction of the cost. And that’s the point - that last 5% (or 10% or so, depending on your hearing and your personal preferences in music listening) is what represents anywhere from an additional US$5,000-$20,000 in cost to attain. Most audiophiles may never hear it no matter how much they spend, because their listening rooms or speakers or sources or hearing (or some combination of two or three of those things) aren’t up to the task.

The other side of that part of the discussion, I think, may be whether or not that last 5% even matters on most recordings. In the quest for the best, it matters. In the quest to find out how good a system can get in a given room with a given (existing) collection of music on vinyl, CD and high-res files, it matters. In the quest for pure music enjoyment, it rarely matters at all. Combine that last bit with the inescapable fact that every uber-high-end integrated maker produces a component with a definitive sound (a la Srajan Ebaen’s note about Gryphon’s house sound) to get some rational perspective on the real differences between ultimate-class (or near-ultimate class) integrated amps.

For the record, to my ears, the best integrated amp I’ve heard to date is the Esoteric F1. The Luxman and my LFD are close when compared in my own main system, and when compared in systems with Wilson-Benesch Cardinal speakers at My Kind of Music (in Toronto) or KEF Blade speakers (at Audio Eden in Aurora, north of Toronto). But my ears tell me that I like the Esoteric F1 best. The thing is, when I get home the LFD NCSE MKII resets my attention and I forget about all the others yet again. The fractionally priced Yamaha A-S2100 is not far behind at all, which to my way of thinking is an astonishing achievement by Yamaha. Yet another great integrated amp.

 

My expectations would be much lower for the A-S2100 or A-S3000 and I doubt I could make myself over-ride that feeling. I'd try, but I'm sure I'd extremely impressed taking into account the price. I do wonder if you've heard the T+A PA 3100 HV. Major upgrade, from what I gather, over the soon to be discontinued model. Appreciate your insight!

I'm not sure what the "ceiling" on your system (with the Yamaha) is compared to mine, in particular, but compared to others who post their experiences here as well. Further, it is your judgement of what "90-95%" means. That last few percent may be 30% for someone else.

Your point regarding "most recordings", irrespective of your view on what "that last 5%" means exactly, is worth noting. Much appreciated. I listen to 60-80s jazz and rock/pop primarily. I do curate my collection in an effort to have the best digital (physical disc for now) for any given album. My music collection is small by this forum's standard- fewer than 3,000 albums. But I'm adding to it slowly but surely. Would like to thoroughly cover the 50s to 80s at some point.

Anyhow, if something as non-audiophile as the final two tracks on LZ II continue to improve in surprising ways, then I'll keep upgrading. If that gets better, then nearly anything else will!

As for "house sound", I mean, we are all trying to create an illusion. There is no singular correct sound. This is a topic unto itself.

I doubt that even the A-S3000 would come close to my current separates, much less compete with the Luxman, etc. Your view is appreciated nevertheless. I can't determine if people believe that Cary gear stinks, at its price, or that other gear simply has far better parts and design.

 

I am with those who feel these Yamahas can be compared with any Pass, LFD, Levinson, Vitus, or any uber integrated. No excuses. Not 'for the price'. For the Sound. Try it, and then report back to us. Don't let the price fool you. I think it produces magic. Will you agree? That's the question.