And, it does not process 5.1. That's the deal breaker for me. My OPPO-205 will ALWAYS deliver a sound stage that has greater depth and breadth from multi-channel than the Marantz concept processing stereo .
First let me get two points out of the way: If someone listens to Product A and Product B in their system and they experience them as sounding different, then of course they should get whichever one sounds better to them, and they should enjoy it and not look back. I believe strongly in the predictive power of measurements, but I also believe that beyond certain thresholds, differences in measurements are meaningless because we can't hear them. So let's compare the measured performance of the Chord 2Qute and the Oppo 205 (per AudioScienceReview.com): SINAD (signal over noise and distortion: Chord 109dB, Oppo 115dB Jitter: Chord approx -145dB, Oppo approx -135dB Linearity: Chord 20 bits, Oppo 20 bits (max possible with the measurement used) Both units are truly excellent in their performance. The advantage each one has over the other (noise and distortion for the Oppo, jitter for the Chord) is irrelevant because both units are so good that the differences are beyond the ability of anyone to discern. So at retail in 2017, the Oppo was the no-brainer choice: both units had the same retail price, and the Oppo gives you the same performance plus a ton of additional functionality. But of course in 2020 on the used market, the Chord sells for below original retail, while the Oppo sells for above. That changes the value proposition: now the extra functionality of the Oppo will cost you about $1700-1800 more over what the Chord apparently can be had for. Whether or not one can add all the necessary equipment to the Chord in order to equal the performance and features of the Oppo for that $1700-1800 is a question that I'm sure reasonable people can debate. But it's certainly not impossible to do so, and on the other hand it's certainly not a slam-dunk guarantee that you can do so. As I've written - repeatedly - in previous comments, I have no argument with @shug4476 on the point that the Oppos are not necessarily a good value now that they are selling for nearly 2x original retail - I love mine and didn't bat an eye paying $1299 for it - but if I didn't already have one, I very much doubt I'd be willing to pay $2500 for one. But I do disagree with shug's casual assertion that the Chord performs better than the Oppo. There is no evidence for that - just as there is no evidence that the Oppo outperforms the Chord. If shug has heard both and prefers the Chord, I am not going to say that is wrong or delusional - I will believe that's what shug hears, and that's cool. But that's not evidence that the Chord objectively performs better - in other words it's not evidence that anyone else would hear the same difference shug does, and it doesn't tell us anything about what the results would if we had 100 (or 1,000) people A/B both units. To come at it from another angle, I will agree with shug and take it a step further: you don't have to spend even the $700 for a used Chord 2Qute to equal the Oppo's DAC performance. These days you can get something like a Topping D50 for $250 or so, which will equal both. But to be clear, the fact that a sub-$300 DAC can equal both the Oppo and the Chord cuts both ways: there's nothing magical about the Oppo's DAC performance, but by the same token there's nothing magical about Chord's custom-designed FPGA DAC with its 8 gazillion taps - which is what many Chord proponents rely on (implicitly or explicitly) when they make assertions about how Chord DACs are supposedly superior. I make this point because I see a good deal of hypocrisy in the "Oppo is overpriced" arguments that have been made repeatedly in this long thread (I am not singling shug out here - I'm talking about many comments made by many people). Almost no one who slams the Oppo's value-for-performance names alternatives that are low-priced, high-value units like the Topping DACs. Instead, they typically name alternative brands on par with Oppo in the market, or higher-end brands or units (remember the people touting Emotiva players with fewer features at 10x the price?) - in other words it's audiophile snobbery and people saying, in effect, "Don't believe the marketing hype and techno-jargon about Oppo.... Instead believe the marketing hype and techno-jargon about this other brand." Finally, it must be noted - yet again - that for anyone who wants to play SACDs in pure DSD mode without conversion to PCM, your choices are much more limited and virtually none of the "Oppo equivalent using multiple components" solutions are actually valid for that use case, because it's difficult to impossible to get a DAC that has the necessary HDMI input and Oppo/Chord/Topping-level performance for an affordable price.
Didn’t know the deal fell through. My point still remains—Pioneer is simply a brand of Onkyo, and most Onkyo, Integra, and Pioneer products are badge-engineered versions of the same basic platform. Same thing for the Sound United companies (Denon and Marantz).
It's not a multichannel item though - typically associated with home cinema products - and features in Marantz stereo range. It's a CD/SACD player with network capability. Looks like it sits in the Pearl/Ruby-lite space and they've been hitting that price for a few years now. Comparison between multichannel and stereo seems like an apples and oranges approach. I'd expect any decent multichannel system to sound fundamentally different and if those recordings are your preference, all power to you.
Interesting discussion. To start with, I have no oar in the water. I’ve never owned an Oppo of any kind. Back when the feeding frenzy occurred a few years ago, I didn’t pay a lot of attention because I didn’t have a 4k tv or a single dvd-a disc. So I never attempted to purchase an Oppo 203 or 205. We just upgraded our tv here in Florida to a Sony 85” 8k LED XBR85Z8H and a Denon 8k 7.2.2 receiver and matching Klipsch speakers. We purchased a Panasonic DP-UB9000 for 4k and blu-ray movies, and I hooked up my Sony SCD-XA5400ES through hdmi for multi-channel sacd. My question is this, would it make sense for me to purchase an after market price Oppo 205 for better video, and sacd audio performance, or just stick with what I have? Would I get a significant boost in audio or video quality to justify the high price of the Oppo today?
Short answer.........NO.......I don't think YOU would. No need to be concerned with Video quality. Your Panasonic has got that covered. WRT audio though........... ATM you are hearing your Denon AVR's DAC(s) when listening to Multi Channel SACD via HDMI as your Sony 5400ES does NOT have Multi Channel analog outputs. The OPPO's you mention DO have Multi Channel analog outputs (with the flagship 205 having superior DAC's vs the 203) You do not mention your Denon AVR model and it is not in your Profile so at a guess, provided it has Multi Channel analog inputs, I believe it's reasonable to expect connecting an OPPO 205 to them would provide higher SQ than your current arrangement. Whether that level of potential improvement is significant enough to warrant pursuing is entirely up to you though and unfortunately there's only one way to find out. In summing up then......IMHO.......what you have is more than fine....... I believe that the current price of an OPPO 205 is too much buck for potential bang in your case.
I agree with @Linger63 . For stereo SACD, your Sony player is an excellent unit and IMHO will sound basically identical to an Oppo UDP-205 playing stereo SACDs through analogue outputs - and even if you were to notice an audible difference between the two, I'd say you would be likely to find the differences very subtle, and if you had a preference it would be 50-50 which one you'd prefer. In other words, no way in the world it would be worth dropping $2500 on an Oppo 205 on the off chance you might possibly hear a tiny difference, and that you would clearly prefer that tiny difference over the Sony (as opposed to preferring the Sony). As for multichannel, I do think there's more of a chance that the Oppo's analogue outputs with multichannel SACD would sound better than your current setup - given how even the more decent multichannel AV receivers' DACs and analogue stages measure, the Oppo probably has a 15-25dB advantage in noise and distortion performance. However, everything would still be coming out of the receiver's power amplifier. If you have a powered subwoofer then perhaps the Oppo might give you somewhat tighter and more accurate bass, but otherwise I'd say the receiver's amplification would mask most of any sonic difference between the receiver's own DAC and the Oppo. One question: do you also play stereo material via the Sony's HDMI output into your receiver? Or do you have the analogue outputs connected from the Sony to your receiver as well? If you are using the HDMI for stereo as well, then you are not hearing the benefits of the Sony's DAC and analogue output, and you should at least try that to see if it makes any sonic difference to you compared to using the receiver's DAC. If you can't hear a difference, then there's no point in considering the Oppo or any other player. If you can hear a difference then the Oppo might produce some benefit with multichannel, but I still would be skeptical about whether it would be worth the expense just for that.
5.1 is indeed associated with SACD. It's what makes SACD compelling, better sound stage in all manner a sound stage is could be discerned as better.
No need to purchase a 205 when you have two great players in the Panasonic UB9000 and the 5400ES. I had a 5400ES in my system for a few months. I did a direct comparison between the 205 and the 5400ES. The comparison was just the stereo analog output and found the 5400ES had a more detailed and smoother sound over the 205. The differences were very subtle and not the infamous "night and day" difference . I decided to stay with the 205 and sell the 5400ES.
You've misunderstood, I was referencing the fact that the Marantz player isn't a multichannel item. And when SACD started out in the late-90s, it was two channel only. M/c followed not long after and moreso when DSD became an available format on the better AV amps. It seems it's more down to the skill of who's putting the m/c mix together. Either way, two channel here and that suits me fine - SACD just as compelling I find. Horses for courses.
Thanks for the opinions and information everyone. The receiver I am using is the Denon AVRX4700H 9.2 channel, but using two of the channels for Atmos. I only use the Sony sacd player for multi-channel through the Denon. I have the stereo analogue outs of the Sony into my Yamaha CX10000 preamp for stereo sacd. I also have the Arcam FMJ CD37 and a Rotel RCD1072 plugged into the Yamaha for stereo sacd & cd. The Rotel does cd, and hdcd.
Thanks Bill, I know you are the expert with OPPO. Having never heard one, I was curious if it was still a worthwhile investment even at the increased cost.
The Arcam player is nice and - correct me if I'm wrong - but doesn't it play a SACD as native DSD? I thought I'd heard this of their higher end FMJ range. Edit: Yup, it does...I'd still have one of these players now should I find one for the right price (And when I'm working again). Details here:- Arcam - CD37 (Discontinued) - CD Player
Interestingly enough, although I bought my OPPO just to enjoy multi-channel SACD, these days I am mostly using it to enjoy AAC, and up to 24/192 ALAC files in iTunes with the OPPO set to 24/192. Secondary use is to enjoy 5.1 FLAC downloads stored on thumb drive.
The Sony 5400ES is discontinued, and the current Sony line doesn't really seem to have anything comparable. Even though Panasonic was part of the DVD consortium that developed DVD-A, the UB9000 doesn't play DVD-A's (most Sony's now do, even though Sony snubbed DVD-A for years)
"Same basic platform" doesn't come close to meaning identical or even very similar end products. Hardware and firmware differences using the "same basic platform" can be dramatic. I for one am very hopeful that Pioneer/Onkyo sees fit to keep manufacturing their high-end universal players and can find a way to get them into the US.
To the extent you (and others) might find measurements useful or interesting, AudioScienceReview has tested multiple Denon AV Receivers, including the 4700H. Most of the measurements are for stereo only, but they provide good information about the units' overall DAC and amplifer performance. Here's the 4700 review: Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) The DAC performance, per measurements, is below that of the Oppo UDP-205 - signal over noise and distortion (SINAD) for the Denon is about 94dB with the preamp controls enabled and 97dB in "pure direct" mode, vs 115dB for the Oppo, and jitter performance is better on the Oppo. I would guess your Sony 5400ES measures similarly to the Oppo, as it's a great piece of kit. But 97dB SINAD is till very nice. Interestingly, according to the review the Denon actually performs slightly better with analogue inputs than HDMI - so going from the Sony's analogue outputs to the Denon's analogue line input (for stereo) would seem to take advantage not only of the Sony's possibly superior DAC/analogue stage, but also offer very slightly cleaner performance from the Denon unit. Again, whether any of these measurable differences would be audible is a separate question. Finally. note that the SINAD of the Denon's power amp is significantly below all of the above, at about 86dB. (This is typical of these higher gain stages - to get appreciably better power amp SINAD than this you generally need to go to a separate power amp.) It is not clear whether that means the power amplification would mask performance differences upstream, or amplify them, or a mixture of both. Technically noise and distortion are additive, but in practice we don't necessarily always perceive it that way. Honestly, while I fully respect the pursuit for the best sound and the sheer fun of the pursuit - something I think we all engage in to a degree - I also would say that a lot of what we wonder and worry about (myself included) doesn't end up making much, if any, audible difference when we listen normally and focus on the music. I generally find erring on the side of less frequent upgrading and system tweaking ultimately leaves me happier and more focused on the music. YMMV.
Thanks... but I'm far from an Oppo expert. Fanboy and collector of Oppo players but that's about the extent of my expertise .
Very well stated as usual Matt! I strongly agree with you in regard to focusing much more on the music and much less on the gear. I went through a long phase of constant gear changes searching for the holy grail. Of course that journey proved to be frustrating and a bit expensive. Now I enjoy my system and of course the music even more than ever ! It's a rainy cold day here in So. Maine. Perfect day to hang out and listen to music. Spinning the Milt Jackson Sextet's Invitation MOFI SACD. What an excellent sounding disc !
Awhile back I saw a thread over at AVS discussing a "budget Oppo successor". The original post showed a very cheap looking player that was far from Oppo worthy. I just checked the thread and the last post showed a GIEC BDP-G5800 and it looks like quite a player! I'm just on the initial fact finding of the BDP-5800. But it looks promising if it becomes available in the US at a decent price. My biggest concern would be attaining service if needed. Hopefully it's not fake news . The feature set looks quite impressive, just a few items listed... 4k UHD playback SACD and DVD-A playback XLR and 7.1 analog outputs Built in 6TB hard disc storage GIEC 杰科 BDP-G5300/G5800 4K UHD Player - Budget OPPO... The link below shows the BDP-5800 for sale with shipping to the US for $1400 plus shipping. The link also shows the full feature set. I have no experience with AliExpress so don't shoot the messenger . US $1398.75 25% OFF|GIEC G5800 4K UHD Blu ray player DVD player HD hard disk player for home With hard disk compartment DTS decoding 12bits color|DVD & VCD Player| - AliExpress Just started a new thread on the GIEC BDP-G5800. GIEC BDP-G5800 UHD player (Oppo like player?)
Two things really. First is Amir at AudioScience in my view and the views of several manufacturers clearly has little idea what he is doing. Second is Bill who is most argumentative claims to be a "collector" of Oppo players so it seems pointless even trying to discuss this with him. Of course people can decide what to do with their own money but the Oppo is certainly not a world class pre/processor or headphone amp. The DAC stage I grant is superb but is still easily bettered. There are much better ways to spend $2,500 on hifi/AV!
We'll have to agree to disagree about Amir. You are far from alone in claiming his measurements are fundamentally flawed based on his lack of expertise or competence - but you are also far from alone in not providing any evidence (beyond the "others say so too" Appeal to Authority rhetorical fallacy) to support this oft-repeated claim. As for Bill, there's no doubt he is a major Oppo enthusiast and quite passionate about his enthusiasm - and I'm sure he'd be the first to agree with that statement! I think your disagreements with Bill are between the two of you and I am happy to let you two argue (or not) as you wish. FWIW, I see points of merit in both your positions. As for the Oppo's headphone amp, yes, I agree - I would characterize it as capable and sufficient but certainly not on the level of the DAC stage - there are many truly superb and surprisingly affordable headphone amps (and DAC/headphone amp combos, for that matter) out there these days. As for the Oppo's pre/processor stage, I can't comment on the video processing. On the Oppo as a digital preamp, I am not aware of any notable performance deficiencies, and its excellent DAC performance includes its full analogue line stage, so I'd say it's a first-rate output device and that its main "fault" as a preamp is that it simply does not provide the additional gain that a real preamp does - it maxes out at I believe around 2.2V unbalanced and 4.4V balanced, whereas a good pre might max out at 10V or more. I have always viewed the Oppo's digital preamp functionality - multiple digital inputs and a good-quality digital volume control - as a nice bonus feature that does not detract from performance. So I guess I can at least partially agree with the spirit of your comment about the Oppo as a pre. As for better ways to spend $2500 on hi-fi/AV in 2020, I certainly agree with you. I love mine almost as much as Bill loves his - but as noted above I would not be a buyer at $2500.
If you care to go through my posts on this forum I have provided extensive evidence - i.e. lab measurements from people who know what they are doing (Paul Miller, President of EISA) which were completely different from Amir's result. If you choose to believe his claim that modern amps from Arcam and NAD have the same SNR ratio as a mass-market, 1980s cassette deck, then be my guest.
So an individual that feels that it's important to actually hear components in their system to make an informed impression is "pointless" . You can read all the online reviews and spec sheets that you desire. But that's not going give you an actual impression of how those components are going to sound in your system and in your room. What a crazy concept... to actually LISTEN to gear to be able to tell how it actually sounds . And I'm pointless .
