Finding The Best Sounding Genesis (Part 1), Album By Album...

I sought out a Virgin/Charisma pressing of Wind because the original Atco is so bad.

Sorry, there is no difference.

The DE is the only choice for W&W in the digital realm.

 

I own Charisma Trespass, N.C., Foxtrot, Live, Selling England, Lamb, Trick, W&W, Seconds Out & Duke. While I have not sat down to a/b all of these to the original U.S. versions on Atlantic & ATCO, which I also own, I don't think any of them are "identical" masterings. If Jeff stops in here, I'm sure he can provide a lot of info. He knows this stuff like no other.

*with Trespass and Live, I only own the Charisma.

 

Alright, here we go, Jaime:

Trespass - orig. Virgin/Charisma - I changed my mind on this. The MCA has serious top end boost .

NC - Orig. V/C - Avoid the orig. Atlantic - not Zal's normally great work, I'm afraid.

Foxtrot - The V/C that comes in the rare boxset is the best I've heard. It is a different mastering than earlier pressing and sounds like a better tape was found. An amazing disc. This was issued in 1990. I would presume any disc issued by Virgin/Charisma that was pressed after 1990 will also sound the same. Zal's Atlantic is a very nice second option.

Live - Orig. V/C is great. Zal's is also great. This is really a toss up.

SE - The original V/C and the orig. Atlantic are identical.

Lamb - I prefer the original V/C here, but the original Atlantic (Zal?) is also quite good.

Trick- Original Atco (any pressing will do) or the Virgin/Charisma (same mastering but just slightly lower in volume) are great.

Wind - DE - Don't argue with me, folks. There is NO choice here. Trust me!
Buy an Atco vinyl copy for two bucks and compare it to the original CDs. Uh... no. The original discs have no bottom end at all and sound nothing like the vinyl.

Seconds Out - I have and adore the original Atlantic but have never heard the original V/C. The DE is just EQd a bit and is not bad at all, but I prefer the original.

ATTWT - No bottom end on the original discs I've heard so I guess the DE is the answer here, just like Trick.

Duke - The US (WEA) pressing is the best, IMO, and it is NOT digitally indentical to the Japan pressing or the Virgin/Charisma. There is a hair less top end on the WEA and on stuff like "Duke's Travel's" at loud volumes, it does make a difference.

Abacab - I prefer the later pressings of the original Atlantic. This sounds like one that Barry fixed just like I gues he did with Phil's first solo album. Early pressings like the Target and super early Atlantics don't sound as good, IMO.

TSL - Barry's version is a stunner. For some reason, the original V/C is identical to Barry's on disc one, but side 3 is inferior to Barry's Atlantic. Side four has different tracks, of course.

Here ends my interest in Genesis.

 

I have the W. Germany Vertigo 810 006-2 with the studio tracks on side 4. I don't have Barry's Atlantic so I can't compare. Have you heard this one Jeff?

I also have the target of ABACAB and I don't think it sounds very good either. The Atlantic gold disc sounds excellent.

 

Is it not possible there is more than one Atco pre-DE W&W mastering out there? Or, perhaps more than one UK Charisma mastering?

Looks like there is, at least for Foxtrot.

I have not heard any of the Charisma, Japan, German or pre-DE Atco W&W cd's, but I do have a NM copy of the earliest UK Charisma vinly pressing. It's fantastic - a quiet pressing, and much better than any US vinly version I've heard (I have several of those).

The US Atlantic DE cd comes pretty close to this vinly pressing - the vocals being the only real weakness compared to the original vinyl (at least on my system). I was quite surprised.

 

No. Is it mastered by Gert Van Hoeyen? Hans Brethouwer?

 

It's possible, but unlikey, IMO. Unless there is an early 90s edition from a better source tape. I once read about a WG sonopress version being great but so far all these kinds of things have turned out to be false. I don't think I ever heard that one but I think I've heard 2-3 different UK Virgin/Charisma CDs and they were all the same: Schitt.

The DE is pretty good, anyway. I have given up because I sense that I could find 10 different pre-DE pressings and thay are all going to sound about the same. And since I have heard people here praise the original Atco versions and even ackwoledge its lack of bottom end, I chalk up the rumored existence of "superior" pre-DE pressings of Wind to probably be subjective listening and reporting.

 

This is not a target?

 

Hi Great Deceiver,

This is a strange one because shortly after I left Atlantic, I contacted Phil and Genesis, telling them how much I'd love to remaster the entire Genesis catalog, including the ones I'd already done while at Atlantic (most likely from EQd limited 1630s). Next thing I know, I receive a phone call and we're making plans for me to do the catalog, a few albums at a time.

I remastered all of the albums, with the possible exception of "Lamb Lies Down On Broadway", which I just don't remember doing.

Good news:
I distinctly remember some of these coming out wonderfully. "Selling England..." apparently had the top end filtered for the original (or what I'm taking to be the original CD release). The flat transfer sounded fabulous and simply "woke up" that record for me.
Similar changes occured with "Wind and Wuthering" and other early albums.
"Abacab" was a stunner - the mixes were just so much better than what was released. [Edit: I have a memory of a 1/2" analog tape for this one. Odd in view of what I say in the next paragraph. Wish I still had my notes.]

Bad news:
Despite my best efforts, what they sent me were flat transfers of the masters made to 1630 U-matic. Needless to say, I'd have much preferred having the analog originals to work from. A few of these sounded wonderful and a few had treble that would remove your dental fillings.

I have never seen or heard finished CDs from the masters I sent back to England. I don't know if they were ever used or if they made up the "Definitive Editions", which I've never heard or held in my hands. (Is anyone credited with mastering on the DE versions?)
They may have been sent back to Atlantic for all I know.
Zal, do you recall seeing any Genesis 1630s with "Barry Diament Audio" anywhere on the label.

It all remains a mystery to me to this day.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Nope.

 

Since the first day that I saw it on CD years and years ago, I've had the IMPORT CD of "Wind & Wuthering" (VIRGIN CHARISMA #CDSCD 4005, Booklet says made in West Germany, CD does not show any country of pressing, but willing to bet, that it was also made in West Germany).

I have always thought that the sound on this pressing was horrible, with little bottom end and all around empty sounding. I've since bought the "Definintive Edition Remaster" and think that it best represents "W & W" on CD.

I also have the West German CD Targets of "And Then There Were Three", "Genesis (self-titled)", and "Abacab" and I've always been happy enough with the sound on all of them, to not bother to ever update them again. Of course, I would love to hear many of Genesis' catalog in surround, especially "Trick Of The Tail", "Wind & Wuthering" and "Duke".

As for "Duke", I have two CD versions, the first is the, made in Japan (Atlantic #16014-2) and the "Definitive Edition Remaster" and I must like the sound better on the "definitive", over the Japan pressing, because it's the one that sits on my main shelf. I may have to relisten to the Japan version. I seem to remember that the Japan pressing had a little less bass, for my taste.

In my opinion, Genesis is one of the few examples of how CD's can actually sound far better, than the original vinyl. The other day I had a friend over and did an A/B on "A Trick Of The Tail", between the original U.S. ATCO vinyl, against the "Definitive Edition CD" and it was no contest, the CD crushed the vinyl. Genesis just put too much music on an album side, to get maximum sound and when you are dealing with the punch and fullness of what Genesis was recording, in the mid to late '70's, sound REALLY matters!

Chris C

 

I don't know, it doesn't have any mastering credits that I can see.

 

Yep. I'll second Jeff's take on this. I recently A-to-B-to-C'ed the US WEA, the original UK Virgin/Charisma and the West German Charisma (all non-DEs obviously), focusing mostly on the first 1:30 of "Turn It On Again". Definitely three different masterings. Both the US and the UK were good, but, as Jeff says, the UK does have just a shade more top end, adding just a bit of tizz to things like the hi-hat. I too prefer the non-tizzed version, but I lived with it perfectly happily until I got the US version.

By comparison, the West German Charisma was *much* worse. I'm not sure whether it may have been taken from a higher generation tape or something, but there's noticeably less "air", the sound staging isn't as good (if that's the word, so that in the intro to "Turn It On Again" the keyboard and guitar are just kind of a smudge rather than two overlapping unison elements) and the drums sound really cardboard-y. It's got a super-cool label (the Charisma yellow rays design), but don't get it thinking that you get a good-sounding CD.

Geoff

 

I only notice the pumping on the first song; the rest of the Charisma sounds pristine to me. Nowhere near as airy as the MCA, but then I find the MCA to have a heavily compressed upper mid and treble. Surely that's a noise reduction anomoly?

 

I remember your remastering of the catalog (or that it was supposed to be) and then, as you indicate, your work never found its way into the library/catalog/release. I don't know how or why. It's sort of like these tapes fell into a black hole.

 

With Duke, I have the Japan Atlantic, U.K. Virgin Charisma and the Definitive Edition. For me, the Japan Atlantic sounds incredible when compared to these other two. The bass on this one is great. I think it's one of the best sounding Genesis discs in my collection.

 

My DE Duke, ATTTWT, W&W & LIVE cd's state: "remastered at The Farm and Abbey Road by Nick Davis, Geoff Callingham and Chris Blair"

I believe Nick Davis is also doing the remastering for the Hi-Res versions.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=99749&highlight=Nick+Genesis

 

What about the fact that an error that was always in Supper's Ready (3/4 of the way through the song) is corrected on the definitive edition remaster of Foxtrot? Does anyone care to comment? I read in 95 that someone involved in the original recording corrected this tape flaw with the band's blessing for this particular remaster. I never see this point being discussed here.

 

Has anyone compared the Japan black triangle versions of TOTT and SEBBP?
Check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/GENESIS-A-Trick...8QQihZ006QQcategoryZ14732QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Can you specify what the problem is that was corrected?

 

The mastering on easier to find versions is already fantastic. I wouldn't pay $80 for that version of Trick and give the guy $12 for shipping, but others may feel differently.

 

Thanks HiFi Guy 008.

So, somewhere there is a set of CD masters I made.
Sure wish I had copies for myself - but I don't.

As I mentioned earlier, "Selling England" and a number of other older albums as well as "Abacab" sounded a whole lot better than the old CDs I have on my shelf.

Zal said it best: "It's sort of like these tapes fell into a black hole."

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

There is a long note that goes on before the flute and guitar passage that precedes the last "piece" of Supper's Ready. It goes on a bit and changes pitch in an odd sort of way. It was a tape flaw that they corrected in 95 for the remaster. If you compare the old version with this one you will notice. I picked up on it the first time I heard it. When I was a teenager, I always thought that it was a mistake. Turns out it was and now it's been fixed. No one here ever mentions it.

 

Okay, I found it at 14:15 in "Supper's Ready", and I agree, it sounds rather nasty, but Ihave never noticed it. Was this tape flaw on the original LP?

 

It's been discussed here many times. The so-called "tape drag."

I feel that an entire disc that was poorly remastered but fixed one minor error on the tapes isn't of much significance.