I know I may get better traction on other forums, but I value the opinions and experience of those around here a lot. So here it goes. I’ve been curious about these types of speakers for a while, and the easy construction and no crossover in the designs definitely adds to the appeal. So after a little research I’ve ordered a pair of the Lii Fast 8 and built a pair of baffles that are a copy of the Caintuck Betsy design. The drivers should arrive in a few days, and I have my baffles built and waiting. Just curious if any one here has experience with these sort of designs? I keep reading about the wonderful staging, and the superb detail. I know the bass will need reinforcement from my sub, but I think the SB1000 should be a start even though I would probably be better off with a pair of them. I would be glad to hear others experience, good and bad, or general opinions (I know that’s a can of worms to open up).
From what I read they should do a better job of retrieving detail. Here is a little comparison from Betsys’ designer. For what they cost they seem like a reasonable risk to take, and they are available through Amazon with free returns at a slightly higher price.
Yes, it’s fun, I have some stuff lying around. Old Philips, Saba Greencones, Siemens Klangfilm Very coherent, fills rooms sounds wonderful ... every little detail is audible ... heaven ... ... until you start thinking how it would be with bass and treble ... Not satisfying long term, but worth trying Build a 3way speaker with your favorite full range driver
It seems like this could be a entirely new rabbit hole to go down. The simplicity of these OB designs really appeal to me, the urge to try the drivers as 3 way will probably not be something that I pursue.
Just try, it’s fun ... and if you are happy, you are happy. Btw for the next baffle - do not center the speaker, gives a better and mor even bass Bigger baffle would be better as well It’s a bit strange, i know, but can be explained physically
I actually have the speakers a few inches to the top of center on these baffles per the Betsy design. I read about not centering, something to do with canceling frequencies? I think I will probably move in the direction of a taller baffle with open 15” drivers below the 8”, but possibly both still running full range. I will have to do some more research before I dive in deeper.
Smallest baffles I’ve ever seen on open baffle designs. Usually they’re the size of basketball backboards.
FWIW, I was once intrigued by the Betsys and made an inquiry regarding how they sound compared to the Lii15 models, This was the response: "After retiring from the IT industry in 2015, I spent the next year operating a small brick and mortar audio store. It was a "bucket list" thing and I knew beforehand that the chances of success were about zero to none ….. ; ) However, I had a blast doing it and was sad when it became obvious that it was a money pit. The main audition room was 17' wide x 35' long with an 11.5' ceiling. The usual loudspeakers in the system were a pair of Betsy baffles with the original drivers. My primary source of amplification was either a 2 watt per channel Decware SE84UFO or a single gain stage pentode "Spud" amplifier. The Spud Kit – …hearing is believing The low bass was supplemented with a single open baffle using an Eminence Alpha 12" driver powered by an inexpensive plate amplifier. The sound of this modest system was pretty amazing and the response of most visitors was "I can't believe all of that music is coming from those small speakers". Truthfully, most of the listening rooms of Betsy baffle owners average about 12' x 12' ….. but I sometimes wish that they could hear these speakers in a larger room. Even though they work very well in a nearfield setting, putting some distance between the baffles and the listener is a treat. Since the Betsy baffles have no crossover components, the effortless sound from even a very low powered amplifier is pretty impressive. To be sure, the Betsy baffles are not true "full range" speakers and roll off pretty quickly below 80 HZ or so. To have some serious deep bass, one or more additional baffles with larger drivers and a dedicated amplifier are needed ….. or a good subwoofer. However, the results from adding even a very modest subwoofer such as the ones sold by Parts Express are surprisingly good. The little 8" driver model punches way above its price tag in most rooms ….. crossed over somewhere between 80 and 100 HZ. I usually run the Betsy baffles full range and then blend the subwoofer in with the crossover and volume controls. The alnico driver Betsy baffles have a bit more "density" and "harmonic complexity" than the original drivers ….. which might be expected from a driver that costs three times as much. Both drivers are natural sounding and musical and I have no problem living with either of them. The Lii 15 is a totally different beast. It does not have the finesse in the upper midrange / treble that the Betsy baffles do ….. but it has a lot more lower midrange and bass. The bass actually doesn't go much below 50 HZ (if any), but the tonal balance is a lot different than the Betsy baffles and will allow some owners to be content without adding a subwoofer system. In addition, the driver has a sensitivity / efficiency of 97 DB which lets it play with gusto using a low powered amplifier. They do have a lot more finesse than might be expected from a 15" full range driver ….. but a good 8" driver has a midrange that is hard to beat. I really do like the sound of the Lii 15, but like everything else in this hobby it comes down to priorities, associated equipment and the type of music a person primarily listens to."
I think the idea with this design is to let them easily disappear at the expense of low end response. I went with the 8” because I assumed exactly what his experience was. I think if I enjoy the presentation of these I will go to the next logical step an add a OB bass driver into the equation.
A box with no back or at least two sides (= folded baffle) works better, one side should be longer Yes, the not centering has to do with canceling of bass frequencies, it’s much milder when not centered
I think from 1000 or 2000 Hz you are good ... below that will be cancellations Big bass drivers need at least 60cm folded, double makes a good bass (if asymmetric) One other funny thing - the screws holding it together shall not be spaced regular, an irregular spacing prevents resonances of the baffle a lot better. Use, if possible, amps with lower damping factor (best tube amps), gives more warmth. High damping factor sounds a bit like dead wood (I have heard that only, I don’t own any modern amp)
I don’t expect to, I am hoping for beautiful mids, intense detail, and creepy good staging. I will rely on my sub for bass for now, probably crossed over in excess of 100hz.
I wonder what your thoughts are on something like the Pure Audio designs are. I kind of see something like that as the logical conclusion to my first experiment with open baffle.
They definitely look nice and will have no bass. And they are breathtakingly expensive... A friend of mine has such a pair of speakers at home, with bigger drivers The stage and 3dimensionality is fantastic, if the speakers are very far in the room (big living room) Pushed nearer to a wall (so 1.5meter away) it’s not there any more. As he lived upstairs I brought a pair of LS 3/5a on stands. They had more bass and a fantastic stage as well. Can’t recommend... especially not at these funny prices. The baffle is simply too small, physics works the same everywhere
I heard their speakers (not this model, but another one in their product line) about two years ago. I went in with high hopes but left disappointed, they sounded a bit empty to me relative to other speakers I was auditioning at the time.
What about if properly integrated with a sub? I tend think most speakers would benefit from that sort of reinforcement, but maybe you don’t? To be clear I am only speaking of the design, I would be doing this as a DIY project. As a full time furniture maker I think buying something like this, given my skill sets, is a little silly.
I wonder if you could be more specific. Was it the lack of bass, highs, muddy sound? I don’t see a lot of information about these kind of speakers, but from a DIY perspective I see a lot of appeal.
I thought they lacked a bit of clarity, which I could see some describing as muddy. I was also expecting more 3D/sound stage. I own two different pairs of Martin Logan electro stats and those are far more ‘dimensional’. That said, I heard them at an audio show in a hotel room so guessing the set-up wasn’t ideal.
I hope they work out nice for you, my own experience with single drivers was not so great. Once I got my Tannoy Saturn Floor standers, I realized what I had been missing. I sold the drivers and put the cabs in the trash.
DIY is the best solution for this kind of speakers, as you can change and iterate to your liking Don’t buy a sub - they are too slow for these hypersensitive speakers, build a bigger baffle First try with a bass driver and a full range (super tweeter can be added later) Probably the bass driver should have a higher sensitivity than the full range, 3dB should work well Life gets easier with Fostex (or others) Potis to regulate the output, can be integrated in the (simple) crossover later 6dB per Octave crossovers should work and don’t turn the phase too much, crossover point should be low like 150Hz Fitting tweeters can be Heil AMTs (from ESS Labs in California), they are never shrill and very airy due to being bidirectional Everything starts with the full range driver though ... it’s values define the others
