Genesis - The Album by Album Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by mark winstanley, Oct 15, 2018.

  1. Jazzicalit

    Jazzicalit In the Tradition

    Location:
    Italy
    It seems to me an obscure and mysterious metaphor of the passage of seasons, summer into fall/winter, through the colors of Harlequin's costume fading and changing into grey. There are many elements in Nursery Cryme about the flowing of time, age, Antiquity as melancholy and nostalgia of youth etc...
     
  2. The_Windmill

    The_Windmill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    Been away for a while.
    Nursery as well as Foxtrot are perfect albums from start to finish, to me. Sure, some cluttered arrangements and muffled mixes here and there, but there's not a single bummer, imagination runs wild, sound soars through the sky and to my teenage self that was almost a mystical experience. And those guys were in their early twenties when making this music!
    SEBTP was my first introduction to Gabriel's Genesis, and sure it got my attention. But Cryme got my love. I think Foxtrot is more mature and complete, but I agree that had the band stopped after NC, that would have been enough already. There is still some unleashed fire here that will be tamed later on. Not bad or good in itself, just different and younger.

    Someone mentioned upthread "if only Phillips had stayed for another album". Well, he did, so to speak. The aforementiond F# demo and the Pollock thing show how many of his or collaborative ideas were used in the album. He was still there. Foxtrot is the true album of the Ant-less Genesis.
    In fact, the press was unimpressed. Trespass was well received but, surprisingly from our vantage point, NC was bashed as not being a true progress or something. In a Giammetti's book I have, Tony says they came as far as believing that the album was weak and they had been able to make it only by recycling many Ant's ideas. Those times of transition must have been dodgy.

    ---

    And now, quotes!

    It was either you're in or you're out. He was out, no credits.
    But he kept getting royalties from Trespass, which every next album helped keep selling. And he was more than fine with that, apparently.

    Not about this song in particular (possibly referring to a Trick one) but I remember Mike saying in an interview that he was tuning the 12-strings unconventionally, so that the tiny strings did some extra intervals. Just by ear. About which intervals those were, "I have no idea".
    They commonly used complex chords by combining two different simple(r) chords played by two guitars.

    C'mon, Mike.

    Which is the same mastering as a plain V/C CD. But the picture disc is cool, indeed.

    That's why I like it :D. Restless, hectic, sharp unexpected transitions... It all fits well with the theme and the narrative.

    As it has partially been discussed already, what Tony did was soloing with a distorted organ while they were without a guitarist. Part of that technique survives in the Musical Box solos but the guitar parts, bends, tapping, phrasing and all are too much Hackett to have been written by Tony. He never had that knowledge about guitar technique. At most, I guess, Hackett reworked some sketches of previous solos.

    Not me. It stands close second after Musical Box here.

    True, but they were doing a lot of band jamming and collaborative writing at the time, so every song was contributed to at least in some arrangements by all members.

    I think it was. For sure I read once a news article from victorian times that was quite similar to it. I don't remember if the cutting toes were included or not though.

    That illustration is gorgeous. She's pure beauty.

    As for Harlequin, I think the spider webs are referring to puppet's strings: Harlequin is a popular character of puppet theater, aside the Commedia dell'arte.
     
  3. The_Windmill

    The_Windmill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Italy
    Maybe something by The Mechanics?
     
  4. Jazzicalit

    Jazzicalit In the Tradition

    Location:
    Italy
    If I remember well, the original version of F#, with Ant and Mike playing 12 string guitars, was released on Archive Collection vol. 1 (the tape was discovered in an old chest by Ant himself in his attic).

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far.

    Location:
    New York
    In fairness - Harlequin pales to something like Ripples for me, and I know Tony co-wrote it (I guess? I feel like that credit is slightly odd) and lyrically he absolutely improved until about the next decade, where he started getting REALLY safe.
     
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  6. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    The Fountain of Salmacis

    The intro kicks the song off and is based on a fine motif in E Minor and B Minor 7th. The intro goes to D Major at the end....very subtle change since B minor 7th and D Major use similar notes....a Tony Bank's trademark to use common tones between chords for effect and to end a chord sequence. Fine use of dynamics. At :34 the verse enters but it is more akin to an extension of the intro since it uses similar chords at first and the intro motif is used. Anyway, at :48 another Banks trademark.....secondary dominant chord (fifths) of F# and then to B Major. The verse returns at :52 and remains in E minor but with an emphasis on A in the bass....a similarity to some of Brian Wilson's stuff. At 1:15 the chorus enters and is based on rock type chords of C-G-D. At 1:23 the verse quickly returns and then the chorus. The intro re enters at 1:54 with some fine guitar fills by Steve Hackett. At 2:26 the intro like verse returns and the verse follows with the chorus....nice counter melodies/lyrics in the chorus depicting separate characters. At 3:15 the song goes up a step to E and the tempo ramps up for a brilliant interlude. At 3:22, Steve comes in with some gnarly triplets and then harmonizes them. Subtle minor drops and lifts throughout give the sense of shifting emotions and entanglement. At 4:10 a quick bridge enters based in F# with Peter taking on the character of Hermaphroditus. At 4:22 Salmacis gets a few words in about the relationship. At 4:34 a second bridge enters with the narrator and it goes thru a cool chromatic descending chord line and finally ends up on D major at 4:51 in a celebratory like rest. At 4:57 the song ramps back up with another fine solo from Steve. At 5:10 a transition section enters with Tony pounding out a bunch of half steps that keep the tension going and then at 5:16 he plays a brilliant variation on the intro motif getting us ready for the return of the intro at 5:32 in E minor. Amazing use of tension and release. The intro like verse is skipped and we go right to the second section verse and the chorus follows. The final chord of the chorus is held at 6:22 and then a brilliant coda follows first with some more amazing chromatic chord work until finally at 6:42 some more Banks trademark use of fifths. At 6:49 the songs harmonic changes slow to an alternation of D-E major giving the song a sense of release and push to resolution. We think the song might fade but in Genesis fashion, the song goes a step higher to F sharp and finishes in triumphant fashion.

    Well, I know I shouldn't go on too much but IMO another work of genius from the album. Changes in dynamics abound and how they keep it all together is amazing. Some abrupt changes in keys and some so subtle it is hard to tell when they occur. Brilliant use of chromatics in the chords. Jazz influence. A lot of sections but still a sense of pop structure here and there. A terrific ending to the album. It took me a while to fully appreciate this album and works like this. The kind of work that takes at least a few listens to connect fully to what is going on.....at least for me it was. :D
     
  7. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    What an album!
     
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  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    At this point in their career they really were quite expert at modulating between keys. They use a subtlety rarely found, and it comes across as musical rather than technical.
    Nice run through mate.
    Cheers
     
  9. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    Yea, it sure is good.
    I think its still my favourite ... at the very least top 3
     
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  10. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Thanks. BTW-Did they play Fountain live on a regular basis? It would seem to me that this one would be one that could go awry played live.
     
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  11. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    Harlequin is a lovely little miniature. Ripples is something altogether different, much more dramatic, romantic, and refined.

    I suppose Harlequin does pale in comparison, but it's not a a fair comparison.
     
  12. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    For sure. I would be nervous as all .... to have to play that live.
     
  13. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    Do you or anyone else know if it was played live regularly back when the album was released?
     
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  14. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    They did play it live, though how regularly, I don't remember. There's a version from 1980 on the UK/Euro version of Three Sides Live.

    I'd have to research whether it was a staple onstage in 1971/72.
     
  15. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
    Don't give Tony all the credit. A LOT of the "synth sounds" came from Steve's guitar prior to SEBTP. Actually even after Tony got a synth, quite a bit of "synth sounds" were still coming from Steve's guitar.
     
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  16. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    I agree. Two very different works and both equally brilliant IMO.
     
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  17. abzach

    abzach Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    After reading about that matter here, I compared it to other V/C pressing and found out that the picture disc sound better.
     
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  18. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    During the instrumental part of the studio version, Phil has his snares in the "off" position on his snare drum. I don't think it was intentional. Maybe they got a good take and just decided to leave it that way.
     
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  19. Thievius

    Thievius Blue Oyster Cult-ist

    Location:
    Syracuse, NY
    I have a couple of bootlegs of them playing Salmacis live in '72; one on January 9th, one on March 2nd. I have no idea how much they played it beyond those dates. But they definitely played it in 1971 and 72.
     
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  20. Eleventh Earl of Mar

    Eleventh Earl of Mar Somehow got them all this far.

    Location:
    New York
    Okay...

    More Fool Me then - even this one I think is more well put together. In the context of short songs, I'm throwing Follow You Follow Me for the words.

    Can you name an example from before The Lamb? Multiple would be better. Musical Box is obvious, but I can't point out any other songs where I clearly know Hackett is working something that's not a guitar.
     
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  21. Rose River Bear

    Rose River Bear Senior Member

    I have been going back and forth between the picture CD and the first remaster. I can't make up my mind between the two although the no noise is evident on the remaster. I have both box sets of the picture discs.
     
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  22. wildstar

    wildstar Senior Member

    Location:
    ontario, canada
     
  23. Thievius

    Thievius Blue Oyster Cult-ist

    Location:
    Syracuse, NY
    Oh. Nevermind. While not a staple of their live shows by any means, here's a performance from 1978.

     
  24. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product Thread Starter

    93 times
    Twice in 71
    Looks like every set 72-73
    All the rest 78

    Genesis Tour Statistics | setlist.fm
     
  25. abzach

    abzach Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sweden
    I find the non remaster to be smoother and more natural sounding, although I actually think the DE remaster is one of the better in that series (I remember hearing some noise, which is a good thing).
     

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