or anyone else besides Badfinger...how about some outtakes by a young James Taylor or Billy Preston, Mary Hopkin even?? supposedly Apple has early Fire & Rain, other stuff tucked away. Ron Furmanek stated he did compile, submit a Badfinger Rarities release way back when...
Nooo then we'll never get Tune In Vol 2. I know I know, we're not getting Vol 2 regardless, but this would put a nail in the coffin.
First off, it’s nice to see that you’re back again after a few months sabbatical. I’m going to disagree that there wasn’t much known about George when he was alive. Many of us knew plenty about George for years and years, and way before he died, but I can see how the Scorsese documentary was good for young fans, or older casual fans . Now, I’m aware that you and other fans are younger than many of us, but .. I don’t think I learned anything about George from the Scorsese documentary that was new to me, although it was a nice presentation in general. As far as “ plenty of young fans craving George’s rarities from the vault”, I’m not sure “plenty” and “craving” is an accurate description of what young fans want, but … maybe. I don’t follow the numbers on Spotify, but from what I’ve read here, “Here Comes the Sun” for sure and maybe a couple of other Beatles era songs by George do really well, but are any of his solo things doing big numbers ? I’m not sure young people can’t afford box sets but it’s a matter of priorities. A know many, many young people that don’t think twice about dropping quite a bit of money whenever the latest iPhone is released. I guess as far as young people, middle aged people and old people craving a box set of solo George rarities….the jury is out until they actually release one. I’d be up for it, and many folks here would buy one without hesitation. I have my doubts that the general public is clamoring for one though.
Anecdotally of course, but my 19 year old son knew kid his age who was really into George Harrison, and only George Harrison, and not the Beatles. I have asked him to clarify that a few times, but it’s always the same. My son could talk to that kid because he knew a lot of George stuff via me. But I always found it interesting that there was even one pure George fan, and that age, with not interest in the Beatles. And he did have all the albums too. It wasn’t just some casual thing with him. He love George’s solo career. I believe his favorite album was Thirty Three & 1/3. Based on his age, the Scorsese doc may have had something to do with it. But I never found out.
Back in touch with him in about 5 years (maybe much less) and the love for George probably disappear...
Let's be realistic, though, because every time someone says the "general public" doesn't want a George box of rarities it gives the impression that George's music has no commercial appeal. The truth is, the general public doesn't have *any* interest in *any* box set by *any* artist. The general public doesn't care about a Rubber Soul box set either, but we can be pretty sure that one will happen. So when we talk about a vault box of George Harrison music, the audience in question isn't the "general public" but rather hardcore Beatles and Harrison fans and collectors, which is a subset of serious Beatles and Harrison fans, which is a subset of serious Beatles fans, which is a subset of casual Beatles fans, which is a subset of serious classic rock fans, which is a subset of serious music fans, which is a subset of casual music fans. Let's say that the number of "casual music fans" in the U.S. is 50 million people. Could be more, could be less -- but that's not a small number. If every subset listed above is half of the group it comes from (this is not scientific!), then George's target audience is about 750,000 people. You would hopefully scoop up some newcomers from the larger subsets due to the PR push, but essentially you have a pool of less than one million people to earn your revenue from. Of course, time and space being what they are, this pool will probably decrease every year. For every 10,000 new fans who might discover George somehow, there will be some greater number who die or age out or lose interest. It would take some kind of seismic event to reverse this trend, and I can't imagine what would cause such a reversal at this point. Paul has had some incremental success battling this trend, but he's a unique case, he's relentless. The Harrison family, respectfully, are not relentless. My point in all this? Olivia and Dhani -- stop waiting for a rainy day! You have an archivist, empower that person to come up with a plan, and start releasing George's music for the people who still want it!
Major credit for them giving All Things Must Pass which had the crazy expensive version and more affordable ones with a fantastic selection of outtakes, enough to give fans a non Spectored All Things Must Pass, something many people here wanted plus all outtakes we knew and didn't know about for his best album. For the Hari family it may have also been using it as a measuring stick in sales for possible future releases. If they felt that did not perform up to their guesstimates, then perhaps that is why we don't have any further material. But it is strange Dark Horse is willing to issue countless obscure albums of other artists on the label. Perhaps that one ATMP box was the plan and that's it. On Spotify last I saw George has about 8-9 million monthly listeners a couple of million below John and Paul solo. My Sweet Lord half a billion listens, What Is Life over 100 mill and Got My Mind Set On You is around 250 mill listens. My Sweet Lord has a big moment in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 which helped some.
This appeared on the Dark Horse Records Facebook page back in February. I find it slightly concerning: Dark Horse Records and Record Store Day are excited to announce a partnership to release limited Zoetrope picture disc pressings of George Harrison’s entire studio album catalog. One interpretation of this is that these zoetrope picture discs, the first two coming next month, will be the only physical reissues of George's solo albums, i.e. no cd's no regular vinyl, just zoetropes and digital. If they release two of these picture discs a year it will take at least 5 years to complete the collection. Hopefully this is not the path DHR is taking but they have done some unexpected things before, especially when it comes to single format releases.
But I never actually said that George’s music has no commercial appeal . What the general public is interested in and what dedicated music fans, George’s fans and folks that may be curious about George’s music through watching his Beatles things like the Jackson Get Back doc are different groups of people. In my view, at this point it’s a fairly small group of people clamouring for unreleased and outtake things . There is inarguably a larger potential market for a Beatles release, ala a Rubber Soul box set than almost any new archive solo release by any of the ex Fabs at this point, when most of the their iconic releases have been exploited by now. And now we are discussing outtakes and rarities, not any nostalgic favorite from George’s main releases. My point is, and always has been that it’s a very limited market for George Harrison rarities these days , just like it would be almost as limited of a market for a box of John’s rarities and maybe even Paul’s rarities. Yes, any set may turn a profit, but a box set by the Troggs may turn a profit also, if breaking even or a little better is the goal. On this music forum there are a fair amount of members who dismiss most of George’s solo albums, and this is the sort of market I think you are implying will step up and make a box set successful. I’m not sure that your starting estimate that there are 50 million “casual” music fans in the US that are actually motivated to buy or download any music, much less archive music 20 to 50 years old . I’m figuring casual music fans listen to music on the radio buy or download a release or two a year, but aren’t really emotionally invested in any artist. Other than Taylor Swift and other current biggies, don’t most #1 albums have sales like 40,000 or 50,000 these days, as opposed to a million copies or whatever in the old days? And.. that 40-50 thousand sales is for new music, not archive rarities by an artist that has been dead for 22+ years. Offhand 10,000 to an absolute max of 20,0oo sales for a box set of George’s rarities seems reasonable to me. Not that they ask me but I think Olivia and Dhani could follow the Experience Hendrix template which releases less commercial Hendrix recordings for his dedicated fanbase under the Dagger Records imprint. But it all comes down to what vision and sales expectations Olivia and Dhani have for any potential release of George’s rarities . Will it/they be a labor of love, a present to his fans, or are they still expecting significant sales? And, as I’ve mentioned previously, sales numbers are a moot point to discuss until they actually release something. Then we will see, but unfortunately right now it’s just all guess work anyway.
Right, you didn't -- your post prompted my response, but I was really responding to multiple posts that have had a very gloomy view on the potential success of any esoteric George release. Agreed! In my hypothetical breakdown, there are 750,000 people they can *target* -- that doesn't mean all of them will buy any of it. (And surely, they all won't.) Indeed, that was the point of my subset breakdown -- it *is* a limited market, and shrinking by the day. If Paul bucks the trend, it's because he is actively working against it (mostly via the Archive Collection, but also things like Wingspan, the Man On The Run project, the Lyrics book and podcast, etc.). And even Paul is running into resistance, which may just be the weight of time and demographics combined with him pricing his own stuff out of this fans' interests. Well, the people on this forum are themselves a subset of my smallest subset -- call them (us) "hardcore Beatles and Harrison fans and collectors who have an inexplicable need to discuss these things on the internet" lol. And THAT subset is a smaller group within "hardcore music fans and collectors who have an inexplicable need to discuss these things on the internet." I could keep going, but I'll cut to the chase: How many people do I think would buy an Extra Texture box set? I have no idea, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was about 5,000 for a Super Deluxe, and maybe another 15,000 for a 2-CD version. Maybe 2,500-5,000 for the vinyl hipsters. But that number will likely get smaller with each passing year. I only qualified those 50 million hypothetical people as "casual fans," I didn't indicate that they would be motivated to buy or download anything. These days, most of them will stream, listen to things on YouTube, experience music through video games or movie/TV placements, etc. The "serious music fans" that I guesstimated at 25 million, might be more motivated to buy or download music -- but as I type that, that sounds too high. The bottom line -- the numbers are grim, people! Monetize those tapes while you can!
Thank you. I'm sure fans who followed The Beatles closely would've been aware of much of it since nothing was particularly mind-blowing, and there was a lot of re-hashing what was already covered in the Anthology. However, it's not only learning new information. It was the fact that it allowed George to be presented in a way he never had been before - through his own photos, videos, demos, etc. as well as intimate recollections from his loved ones. It also gave less appreciated songs an opportunity to shine. I remember at the time, it was like it finally clicked in people's minds what a cool person he was in his own right and that he had a whole other life outside The Beatles. It gave context to the man people mainly saw brief glimpses of in the media. From reading 70s-80s fanzines, The Beatles Book Monthly, bios, articles, and old forum posts, the prevailing impression I got was that fans didn't understand why he was like that, and that tended to create resentment towards him. His contributions to The Beatles were considered minimal, his solo career was treated like a joke, his interest in India an irritation, and people thought he took himself much more seriously than he did. You still see those opinions frequently come up now. The Scorsese doc encouraged a shift in that narrative, and as more information came out over the next decade George's reputation continued to improve. This coincided with The Beatles being viewed as overrated by Millennials, so George increasingly became appealing to people who otherwise weren't interested in them. Yes it's true these kinds of releases aren't going to drum up the same hype they used to, but I'd put that more down to the industry changing than anything. Sales aren't the same for anyone whether they're old or new. However, The Beatles are in a much better position to adjust to that than most other classic rock artists. Someone like George could've easily fallen into obscurity with how little his exposure was and having died more than 20 years ago. Instead he's become one of the most popular names in online classic rock fandom. IMO the key is in the quality of the material. If the Harrison Estate release something full of hidden gems and market it in the right way then it will spark interest beyond a niche curiosity. The situation with George's vaults feels unique to me because outside of the ATMP era and Early Takes Vol. 1 they're a total mystery, and what we have heard is very impressive. It could be something very exciting for all Beatles fans.
Yes, it’s unfortunate we are reduced to speculating how many people will buy a rarities box of George’s rarities, or even … say..a two disc set. As you mention, just release his things and then the sales numbers will speak for themselves! I’ll admit, I have no idea how many box sets or CDs of George’s rarities they look at selling to justify doing them. Generally I don’t care about sales figures at all as long as things keep getting released, but it’s fun to speculate how releases like a rarities box would do these days . It’s a little off topic, and before anyone jumps on me, I know they all sold decently and in some cases really well, but .. Now that most of the iconic solo releases have been given the deluxe treatment… All Things Must Pass, Plastic Ono Band, Imagine, Band on the Run, etc., what will sales be like for a Mind Games set, London Town, Living In the Material World etc., sort of release? These are their actual core releases, nothing esoteric like an exclusively outtakes/ rarities release .
Is doing a subscription website like Neil Young did more expensive (and/or time-consuming) than producing physical releases? The NYA site is confounding, but it have nearly everything Neil ever released, and it has all of the outtakes and unreleased stuff he’s put out, plus 20-30 additional unreleased tracks, exclusive to the site. Naturally, it appeals only to the hardcore fans who pay a subscription.
Well, I’m not arguing with you, but I’d like to address a couple of your observations. I’m not sure with whom or where George’s contributions within the Beatles, his solo career was considered a joke, or his interest in India was considered an irritation. I will admit that I thought he got a little pious and preachy at times and I think others did also. To be honest, I think that was a valid criticism, just like I thought Paul releasing “Mary Had a Little Lamb” as a single was career suicide.. but I liked the record . I honestly don’t know if the Scorcese doc made that big of an impression on young people or people in general or if you are assigning your opinion to a larger group of unknown people . I personally don’t think his reputation continued to improve, because I don’t believe it needed improving. I had no idea that the Beatles are considered overrated by Millennials. I sold guitars etc., to literally every age group and heard guitars being tried out by people playing Beatles songs, again by literally every age group, Millennials included so that’s the only basis I have to go by. Of course I have to agree with you that the quality of the material would be a big key in regards to whether the release has legs beyond we uber fans and a niche group. But, you’ve concluded by mentioning this could be very exciting for all Beatles fans. So, you’re lumping his solo work back in the hands of his Beatles fans ? His solo things can’t stand apart from the aura of his Beatles days ? What about all those Millennials that think the Beatles are overrated and George became popular in spite of them ?
As I say, I'm going by many different sources over several decades, and each of those points came up again and again. The press in the mid-70s and bios about George/The Beatles in the 80s-00s in particular were not kind to him, and it influenced how fans perceived him. I'm not saying the public hated him. He was a Beatle and certainly got a lot of love too, but there's a common theme of him not just being considered a little pious at times, but flatout being a bitter old man with a holier-than-thou attitude who should've been kissing Lennon/McCartney's boots for allowing him in their band. It comes out all the time when the Anthology is discussed. To this day the only George bio I've read which doesn't treat his career post-ATMP like a huge disappointment is While My Guitar Gently Weeps by Simon Leng. I don't think it's controversial to acknowledge that each Beatle has had highs and lows in regards to their public reputations over the years. John was the favourite for a long time, and now a lot of young people can't stand him. Paul was considered extremely uncool for a while, but now he's more popular than ever and every generation seems to love him. George became so popular in the 2010s that it actively annoyed Paul fans and a trend started of people saying he wasn't *that* good and was starting to get overrated now. I was participating in these fan spaces and saw interest in him grow in real time. It wasn't the Scorsese doc alone. At the same time there were more videos of The Beatles/George interviews being uploaded to YouTube, and people started sharing things like photos and magazine scans. Young fans were creating a new way of seeing The Beatles which was separate from Boomer fans who had followed them from when they were still together or Gen X fans who followed their solo careers. And that meant George was held in a higher esteem. The Scorsese doc just acted as a starting point in the same way that Get Back recently did for Gen Z. Was it on the level of Lady Gaga? Of course not, but in terms of the world of rock music fans it was significant. On a wider scale I noticed many musicians in the late 00s-2010s used his playing style and the production of ATMP as an influence in a way which wasn't so prevalent before (yes yes, Oasis). Naturally you're going to get a wide range of opinions in any generation, but in my experience the Beatles nostalgia-fest of the 90s made them pretty irritating to Millennials. All you ever heard about or saw on television was how they were the greatest thing ever and John was a hero, which soon fell apart once more information about him came to light. George was the only Beatle where it felt like you weren't told to love him, and I think both Millennials and Gen Z found him compelling for that reason. Unfortunately at a certain point it started sliding back to those same old narratives about him being ungrateful, largely because of Get Back. I think you're misunderstanding my point on that one. The more niche you get the smaller the group of fans is going to be, so yes if it's a bunch of recordings of George being a little weirdo in his studio then probably only his fans would be interested in it. But if it's something of quality then the wider fanbase of Beatles fans (which is pretty damn wide) will support it, and that in turn will create interest in the wider group of classic rock fans and so on. I'm not suggesting there's this huge audience of people clamouring for whatever the Harrisons throw at them. lol
I thought Brainwashed was fantastic and in part the production made it so. To me George didn't rock enough during his solo career. I can get my mind in a place to appreciate just about any of his stuff, but that's not to say it's all good. Lots of blandness, and I think most of it Is over produced. That said, Brainwashed surpassed all my expectations and inspired me enough that I'd welcome another posthumous release with enthusiasm. Dhani and Lynne did well last time.
That's how I see it. That is a good estimate for any reissue of George's albums (outside of All Things Must Pass).
Do we know how many copies ATMP 50th sold? seems that 5000 + 15000 + 2500/5000 are a very optimistic numbers
I’ve given my thoughts on the possible sales for any rarities release of George’s material, box set, double CD or whatever, so I don’t really feel I have much more to say about that aspect, but maybe I will . I do have to say that I disagree with many of your thoughts regarding the perception of George previous to the Scorcese doc, and your feeling that there was a growing admiration for George because of interviews on YouTube and photos and magazine scans etc., etc. You can feel that of course, it’s your opinion. The quote of yours that really sticks out to me though was the highlighted “George became so popular in the 2010s that it actively annoyed Paul fans and a trend started of people saying he wasn’t “that” good and was starting to get overrated now.” Huh? Where did this idea come from? I thought 16 magazine folded years ago ? I can’t actually believe this actually happened unless three people on an Uber Paul blog somewhere came up with it. Exactly which people started saying George wasn’t that good ? Your last thought I find interesting is “but in my experience the Beatles nostalgia-fest of the 90s made them irritating to Millennials.” Wasn’t George in the Beatles? I would assume that they would be irritated with George along with the other three Beatles. “George was the only Beatle where it felt like you weren’t told to love him, and I think both Millennials and Gen Z found him compelling for that reason.” My problem with this, as with many of your assumptions stated is…. I wonder if you are ascribing what are strictly your opinions to a larger group of people, to help support your viewpoint ? I have trouble when anyone, myself included D) assumes they can speak for an entire generation of people, or in this case two generations of people . But, I enjoy reading your thoughts on George etc. It’s fun to talk about. I don’t have to agree with your viewpoints, and you don’t have to agree with mine!
Bingo. Without sitting down and nerding out looking album by album…. I really love everything George did in the Beatles. If I was to guess though, I really like or love about half of George’s solo songs, the exceptions being because of what you’ve described. For me: His first two albums : great Cloud Nine: Great..including similar era “Cheer Down” Cockamamie Business” and “Poor Little Girl” Brainwashed : Very Good Every other solo release: a few songs I like per album Actually “Wonderwall Music” is in my top three favorites from George .
