With all respect to Jeff and his crusade against anything remastered I think he went a bit too far here. King Crimson remasters are PERFECT, probably the best remasters ever (excluding Steve's work or maybe not), they leave my (and not only my) jaw on the floor every time. I don't even want to hear the old Crimson CDs again but from what I remember they sounded very mediocre and were taken from very questionable tapes. P.S. Jeff, no offence, you know I really admire you man, but I somehow suppose your system could be one the bright side. There's nothing bright or edgy about Crimson remasters whatsoever and the amout of detail and 3D sounstage is unparralelled for a non-XRCD redbook.
I agree Butch, warmth ain't everything. I prefer the 30th Anniversary Court and Poseidon disks over my original EG disks (long since tossed) too. I don't have a high end system, no waveforms, just an appreciation for this detail rather than the warm mud of the EG originals.
Perfect? I don't know. I suspect, too, that some of the discs, and especially Red, are a bit on the bright side. I tend to suffer and enjoy Starless at the same time.
So, is your suspicion that any difference noted was due to the player I used? In other words, when it says "Remastered by Simon Heyworth and Robert Fripp," this just means they rolled the tapes flat and did nothing. They didn't add any EQ moves... just ran the tapes, right? See, what's interesting is that I would always put mastering as a more likely sign of something having a major difference in EQ, whereas some folks would have you believe that nothing is ever mastered with any annoying EQ, you just need the right system or player to decode it all.
See, Anton, the problem is that you haven't done any comparisons and are going from memories of the older discs, possible theories about my system, some "crusade" I might be on about remasters, etc... I'm talking about actual listening tests. A very different discussion. Speculation, memories of older discs, etc. are not things that I trust. I sat down and compared, yesterday. When was your last A/B test?
The 2004 "Original Master Edition" of In The Court sounds perfect on my system, not bright at all. I bet the older version you speak of would sound too dark. Your system sounds like it is on the bright side. Try setting farther away and toe your speakers slightly out. Placing your speakers closer to the rear wall will boost the bass also, warming the sound.
So ... let me guess, you dont own the original EG disc? And the he OME is perfect compared to ... what, exactly? The sky? Other discs you own by other artists? The sound of your upstairs neighbor taking a leak? See post # 29 for answers to your theories about this being "system-based."
This is a good discussion, folks. Let me point out that I don't recall telling anyone to sell their 30ths and hunt these down, nor did I request analysis of my system. The goal is to provide my opinions and try as best as I can to determine which CDs likely resemble the original sonics. If you enjoy your 30ths and feel there is not even the possibility for improvement, I think being in this thread makes little sense. If, on the other hand, you are a bit curious as to how these compare, it might make sense to contribute. Here are two samples of Red: EG http://www.badongo.com/file/4557521 30th: http://www.badongo.com/file/4557553
thanbks for posting those. I'll have to give it a listen when I have something other than laptop speakers to listen. Great comparisons and analysis, BTW.
In The Court of The Crimson King I'll post clips also, but this seems to disprove any notion that the OME is more dynamic than the original EG release. This is actually from the 2:00 to 3:00 mark of each disc during "Schizoid Man."
Is this waveform with HDCD decoding? Or just a straight rip off the CD? I just found a copy of the OME for a great price ($11.95) and it revelatory using my Denon DVD-2910. I had the previous Definitive Edition to compare it with, but I've never been impressed with any SQ before. Didn't Fripp state that on previous issues of this album there was a faulty channel (I can't remember if it was the right or left) and when it was first cut to vinyl they had to add a boost at 10kHz. I just might have to pick up newer remaster of In the Wake of Poseidon even if I don't care much for the album.
Can't agree here. The 30th 'Red' is the only one that ever sounded good to me. Whatever was done,this album needed it.
I've only compared the OME Court with the 30th Anniversary edition and the newer one is so much better. Didn't all of the copy tapes for this album have some bad azimuth problems due to the safety copy being copied poorly? To me, the OME has a much more solid soundstage than the older disc....
So, will your enthusiasm for these last, or will it be another case like 'Welcome Back My Friends'? Really, different rooms, different speakers, different ears, different mindsets and priorities...when the discs really ARE different, as in this case, it all comes down to preferences. Btw, most of the KC HDCDs are simply lowered in level during decoding, while a couple (Islands and Lizard and Poseidon, if I recall correctly) seem to also have peak extension turned on, though they don't really get all that extended. I suspect in teh case of the KC series, the HDCD pipeline was mainly used for its fine A/D stage....
I have done some actual listenning tests and I agree close to 100% with your findings Jeff. Very good work . And my system is a bit better than average (sorry for this but I feel it's needed).
The best thing about the EG is that it's the only CD version I know that lets the tape roll ALL the way to the end...so that you hear Bruford asking to do 'one more immediately'.
The version being discussed here precedes the Definitive Edition. I don't think anyone has come forward to praise the DE, so you are probably not alone.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the 30th, but it is obviously much brighter than the EG disc. From that sample, I prefer the EG, but a mastering in the middle between the two would be even better.
Actually, listening to that very disc a few weeks back, I wondered what in all hell I was thinking... I'd like to think I have come a long way in my appreciation of a more "pure" signal since then, but I am sure that thought has an element of wishful thinking.
I find that when I really put the EG to the test, I long for nothing. I wouldn't change a thing on that disc. Some of the louder sections with horn solos hold up beautifully due to a presumably flat transfer. And the sections with the mellotron at full blast are near nirvana. I never realized how good this album sounded until I picked up this disc. Maybe I had the '89 version years ago, but I am very pleased with this one.
Okay, here we go... In The Court comparisons. Now, the curious can simply download a one minute sample and compare for themselves: Clip 1: EGCD 01 (note: Mid-80's disc - NOT the 1989 "Defintive Edition") http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=308F39667E25932F Clip 2: Original Master Edition: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=F3C60930718BF0AE
It isn't needed on my account. IMO, the "you could appreciate all this jacked up EQ if you only had the right system" crowd is arguably the most ridiculous element of a forum supposedly about mastering. I appreciate your effort on this, but that crowd isn't likely to change. For those folk, one will never have the right system unless he comes to agree with their opinions
The differences are relatively small in this case; I could go with either sample. The OME has a touch more midrange. I do remember the WG Polydor to sound much more muffled. I would assume that the songs from side 2 show more differences since the point of the OME was to have found a better tape for that side. Could you post samples from the title song?
It might be helpful for some if there were some notes in the above list that is specific to what EG (DE) is referring to in the thread conversation. Also putting "Jem" next to original CDs would be a good idea if those are what is being mentioned for 1. Or are those Jem CDs being called EG? I think Polydor West Germany/Japan/UK CDs are what some think of as "original CD" issues. It may not be all the simple here. I consider: 1. The original CDs. Jem/Polydor 2. The 1989 "Definitive Edition" remasters. EG remasters
That might make things even more confusing. Polydor only issued ITCOTCK, Discipline, Beat, and TOAPP. The last of those was issued in the States by WB as a target, using the same disc, Virgin/EG reissued those four and added the other studio albums. Jem issued those copies in the States. The DE remasters were also issued by Jem in the States (according to the Frame By Frame booklet, there were also Japanese issues. and I once saw a UK Virgin Larks with the Definitive Edition credit on the back cover, but that might just have been a printing error and the disc may have been unchanged) 'Jem' doesn't really identify anything except that it's a US copy.
