Well, I goofed. I didn't catch this but it appears that for Red I have the 1989 "Defintive Edition" remaster, so that is what I sampled. For all the others, I have the original EG/Jem discs. I double checked this carefully. Sorry about this mistake. I guess some of those 1989 discs might be worth checking out, after all. I think I'll at least try the Wetton-era stuff and compare.
Yes, I will do that, Andreas. I am surprised the differences are relatively small to you in this example. To me, the OME has drums that sound paper thin after all the obvious midrange boost. I would rate the difference as fairly drastic. Here is IiCotCK. Same problem, a better source tape is evident but midrange boost has left the drums sounding thinner than I prefer. I am unconvinced the increased "detail" has as much to do with saving a couple of generations on tape as opposed to excessive EQ manipulation in the mastering chain. It just doesn't sound natural to me when compared with the old EG disc: EG: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8C42ECB037086A3B OME: http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=63C713DE7D670AC0
The comments you make are exactly why I felt more notations are needed in the list. EG is not used in the list, but it is refered to in the following thread right? The Virgin UK CDs were for many years the same exact Caroline/EG DE issues. Just the Islands DE CD was not issued in the UK in the series, as it has flaws and Fripp had it pulled, but was unable to halt the US release because a thousands of copies of each title including Islands had already been printed up.
Well, I think this a good idea, but the question is how to go about it. As you can see from my goof on Red above, I didn't catch that my EGCD 15 was a DE, because it has the same catalog number as the original disc. All the DEs note that they were "re-mastered by Robert Fripp and Tony Arnold, 1989." When inquiring from sellers of these older discs, people are probably best advised to ask the seller if this is written on the rear insert. More research is needed to determine if some of these 1989 discs are also worthy of discussion. We know that Islands is not, based on John Buchanan's report of the apparently horrific attempt at no-noising the first couple of tracks from a vinyl rip due to missing tapes for the 1989 DE edition, but some of the other discs may warrant a listening session. I am very impressed by Red from this series, as it turns out that is the disc I have. The original EG CDs were also issued by Virgin in the UK and by Jem in the US, so calling them the EG/Jem discs isn't going to help identify anything but the US pressings. All pressings are identical, near as I have been able to tell, so I suspect this might work when discussing these: 1. EG 2. EG DE 3. 30th
Some of the DE disc have the original mastering. At least my UK original EG of Starless.. share the same mastering as the US DE. If your copy of Red is the US DE this could be the same as the original UK. I will check your sample against my original UK edition later today and maybe post peak levels for comparison.
I have to disagree here. That song sounds miles better on the OME: Better separation, more definition, clarity, and details, plus finally a realistic drum and guitar sound. I admit that the eq on the OME is not optimal, it could be a bit more recessed, but the source improvement is far more important to me.
I can't believe that I'm saying this so directly about In the Court,but the original EG cd was not that good.No mastering can save a "50th generation " dubbed master.It sounded "analogy",but not in a good way!Mastering moves aside ,the source for In the Court of the Crimson King is dubious and it is in no way a good sounding cd IMO!I'm sorry ,that I didn't make myself abundantly clear on that.BTW, the other versions are tweaked,but don't sound messy like this original EG!
Why should I search for long OOP Crimson CDs that I hated back then and haven't heard or saw in at least 5 years if I'm perfectly happy with remasters? Too bad my comp is not working properly at all and I can't download your samples but today I checked Poseidon, Lizard, Islands and Red just to refresh my memory - the truth is that these are among the finest remasters ever released! Everything important moment about remastering is done perfectly right here - dynamics and huge, soundstage just fill the room like few SACDs can, no noise here and the EQ is simply stunning natural. The highs and the mids are divine! This is Steve Hoffman quality mastering and not probably because of Simon Heyworth (I hated some of his other jobs) but because of amazing ears of Robert Fripp - the only musician (well, maybe Gabriel also) who can be trusted with overseeing his own catalogue. Not only he is a musical genius but also the guy with golden ears (which is incredible considering the earsplitting volume of Crimson concert I went to a few years ago). These remasters were reference discs on all of my systems since 99 (in fact I bought my first serious speakers after testing them with LTITA remaster) but on this, latest one they sound like heaven on Earth!
Because, before stating that a version is better than another, you have to do some A/B between versions on the same system ? Love your audiophile set-up BTW.
HDCD is in some ways a can of worms. I am no expert but from what I have read and heard HDCD can be mastered and encoded and decoded in different ways. I agree about some EQ having an annoying effect, that is why I am seriously considering and EQ for my main system.
I think the OME samples sounds very good. To me it sounds like there is more information through the whole spectre giving it more impact in the drums/bass and details/air in the top end. I definitely see way people prefer this one to the darker/less detailed sounding EG.
Well, this place never ceases to amaze. I think the EG sounds more analog, warm and realistic. The OME has a drum sound that I find to be nearly unlistenable in comparison. The midrange boost leaves those already strangely produced drums sounding like Giles is hitting paper with forks. And btw, folks, claims of 50th generation tapes being used for the EG would seem a little silly. How do we know what tape was used? Like Barry with the first round of Zeppelin discs, that could have easily been from a flat safety of the master, for all we know. One thing is for sure, EG did not have the same tape as Polydor for this one, as the WG Polydor sounds completely different. Again, the "detail" people seem to love about the OME doesn't sound like it is a result of a better analog source tape source to me as much as it sounds like a giant hump in the midrange EQ.
Not necessarily, but that is a pretty good way to determine something of this nature, wouldn't you say? I understand people digging the 30ths. I actually like them in some cases, and I don't hate any of them. What I am pointing out is that comments like "I got the 30ths and they rawk. I had some older discs years ago and they were crap" aren't necessarily that telling. These are the kinds of comments one expects to read in Amazon reviews, not on an audiophile forum, but such is life. I welcome opinions that differ with mine, but these are my opinions based on recent listening tests with specific discs. Not vague memories about discs played on who knows what system, not guesses as to which discs I had, etc. Andreas, for example, disagreed about In The Court after actually listening to the samples. What a concept!
Jeff, if I manage to find an old unremastered Crimson CD just for the sake of comparison I will immediately let you know. But isn't pretty normal (even for an audiophile forum) that if somebody has certain remasters for 8 years or something and is totally happy with them he doesn't have to keep inferior (in his opinion) old CDs all these years just to make A/B tests from time to time? Does it make the guy less serious music enthusiast or collector???
No, of course not, Anton. I follow you on this. But Crimson is an all time favorite for me, and I got curious after a recent thread showed some possible light compression on the Wetton-era stuff. It just sort of went from there. I started trying to snatch some of the older discs when I could and finally decided to really do some work on this. In some cases, I will probably keep both discs, but I feel that some of the EG discs sound more natural.
The EG DE sample posted earlier is not the same as the original EG CD I have. I think the original EG is even better than the EG DE. The 30th is too compressed. 2 samples from the Original EG follows. http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=25930B0621C108EA and http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=8C1BDA401DDECD02
Did you notice: a) that the original CD has a higher hiss level, in spite of having darker eq? b) has narrower stereo separation?
i recently picked up the OME of In the Court... as my first King Crimson purchase. i have to admit that i was a bit disappointed with the sound given all the unqualified praise it has received here over the years. i haven't compared to any other CD versions, but this thread halfway confirms my reservations regarding the EQ choices. i'll have to check out some older versions for myself if i run across them in the future.
BTW,claims of a 50th generation tape were greatly exaggerated!No one took that literally.That cd doesn't sound anything close to a safety of a master.The fact is ,this EG CD reminds me of bad LP masters from 70s.It sounds like it could easily have been from an equalized LP mastertape not a safety,mate. That being said ,even if this is a second or third generation copy master done flat ,it was still a travesty of a mastering!That is the sad thing about this issue,because if this is confirmed (that this is a 3rd generation used-up copy tape) then one didn't turn a turd into a rose this time 'round!I remember a thread about this topic from sometime ago as to the origin of the tapes ,the sound of In The Court,etc and I wonder what the link is?The EG version of the album sounds like a noisy,muddy mess in my opinion.Warmth is a separate issue from clarity and focus in a remastering.A 3rd generation tape that is compressed to heck or uncompressed can sound quite terrible even mastered to LP!It sounds warmer right?Warmer might mean fuzzier,muddier and unlistenable as well.
Indeed, but neither of these factors concern me as much as what has happened to Mike Giles drums as this thing was "opened up." I am not questioning that a better source was found, so clearly there would be less hiss and neither am I surprised that the separation is a bit better. But the OME exhibits the classic signs of midrange boost. Some people probably don't mind it, but I hate that sound because snare drum and cymbals just can't handle it. To my ears, they sound digital in comparison to the EG. They become intrusive and on top of the music instead of a part of it.
Hmmm... Sounds like you are discussing the WG Polydor disc, which is from a totally different source tape. I wonder if the '89 EG used this tape for some reason and people who bought that disc remember that? Please listen to the samples provided and weigh in with your thoughts after that. This would be more helpful to us, methinks. Thanks!
You're killing me. Can you not see that maybe, possibly, there is a chance of unacknowledged biases creeping in to such comparisons?
For what it's worth, The unfortunately named 'Definitive Editions' did not promise that they were from original master tapes...Fripp said quite otherwise in some interviews. They were from the best sources he could get his hands on at the time...at a time when his relations with EG were deteriorating. According to Fripp's diary, even some of the 30th Anniversary editions are from safeties (in one case -- Discipline I think -- Fripp says the safety sounded better than the OMTs).
I had the same experience but kind of convinced myself that the tapes must sound that way, so live with it as it's the best the album would ever sound on CD. I no longer believe this after comparing it with the first EG issue. I bet you anything an early Island LP pressing would trounce the OME, and wouldn't exhibit that midrange boost. Heyworth and Fripp added that, IMO. The love for this disc hasn't convinced me otherwise. There is no way I believe that the original tapes had drums that sound worse than the sound of those same drums on an inferior tape!
You do realize, though, that When Mr. Hoffman works his magic, he most often focuses on the midrange, yes? Touching up the midrage is not necessarily bad, is all I'm saying.
