Groove wear/damage on new records. New topic with photos.

I said I'd create a new topic on this as the last one is getting clogged up and information is being lost/not seen. Here's the last one for anyone who is interested:
Groove wear despite being played on a good setup. Help appreciated.

Right, so for about a year and a half I had an Audio Technica LP-3 with firstly a conical AT91R cartridge, then after about 6 months an ATVM95E cartridge. The first cartridge just used the factory alignment; I didn't meddle with it. However, I was introduced to the concept of cartridge alignment after purchasing the VM95E. I was subsequently meticulous (almost to the point of paranoia lol) about this. I was also, from the start, very meticulous about VTF, antiskate etc.
So it came as a surprise, then, when I noticed what I think is groove wear or damage on some of the records. I would attribute this to a previous user, but some of the records are represses which I bought NEW.
This presents itself as grey/silver grooves when held slightly away from the light, and shiny and silvery when held to the sunlight. It's often not too obvious unless held in a certain way to the light. I'm baffled by this and don't know how it could have happened. Neither do many people who replied to my previous topic.
Is this wear/damage or is what I'm seeing something like dust lodged into the grooves? It's worthy of note that even after cleaning with spray and a microfiber, it's still there.
A good deal of these records play without distortion.
Here are photos:
Mike Oldfield, Crises, 1983 Irish Press. It's everywhere on this but pay special attention to the 'flecking' on the inner track


Depeche Mode- Speak and Spell, 2016 remaster 180g (Bought new):

 

It could be they are bad pressings and your previous set up was just not revealing enough to show any fault? I could see a Crosley causing damage after 20 plays but not the LP-3 if it was correctly set up. Maybe buy a good alignment tool and not rely on ones printed of the internet. Not confident that the scale will be absolutely right with all printers. Also do you check VTF with a proper scale? I would advise buying one of the cheap electronic unbranded ones. I have verified these to be accurate enough. The 1500C is a much better deck and it is possible it's the record if limited to a particular title. The grey effect I have only seen on records played many times on old heavy pick ups from the 60s and 70s. Most damage is not visible to the naked eye. Also bear in mind that a ML stylus can reveal problems that did not show up with elliptical and conical styli. If I were you I would bin the offending discs, move on and ensure your current deck is set up correctly before playing any more records. BTW The photos aren't showing!

 

I just don't know how this wear was caused. As I say, most of the discs don't sound distorted, it's only of a cosmetic nature. Is anyone else having problems with the photos?

 

Yes. They're not loading.

 

I'll have to include them as links instead

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Gjee9dsHd5aLr8eP6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nDPSJnis2V6xHAZi8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hx63Ff9TxMinhTAF6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eXxj227pcHK3ep2p7

 

Looks like heavy bass modulation. I have some DJ records with heavy electronic kicks on it that has similar patterns of matte gray and shiny black.


The inner most track looks like it had some kind of factory grease in the grooves that's smeared out by the stylus. Same looks occur when a sticky roller is used to clean a record, but instead smeared out grime (when the roller isn't cleaned before using).

Edit: it looks like the images are loading when I open your link, click on the image for fullscreen, copy the image location and embed it using the interface next to the emoji button.

 

Hopefully...this is Depeche Mode's Speak and Spell which has some kicking basslines. Why, though, wouldn't the grey continue in a full circle...as you can see they're kind of broken up on this record

 

I have no idea why it's not the full circle, maybe because the bass isn't a continuous sinewave but more like a kick that strikes and dies out before a new kick is struck?
With oldschool analogue synthesizer music, the patters can get even stranger, especially when it's cut "hot" and as a 12" single at 45RPM.

 

I have two examples of how funny the patterns can look like at some records:



A DJ Record with heavy bass and electronic samples. The grey stuff is light reflection because of the angle, not actual grease or damage.



This is an Ortofon Test Record, which shows a clearly "checkered" or "striped" set of tracks. Those are the tracking ability test tracks that contain laterally modulated sinewaves with 50μm to 100μm peaks.

 

So you don't think it's groove wear then? A lot of my records are like this, but then again a lot of my records are electronic/synth

 

I own a handful of electronic LPs and 12" singles and can confirm that that grooves look like that, regardless if it's a DMM or lacquer cut. Music with a lot of heavy bass require more groove space to "fit" into a record. Sometimes you see "light" and "dark" grooves, which depends on the music and how quiet or loud the music is. That's the nature of cutting music into a record.

 

To me it looks quite normal.
Some electronic music can be hard to track for (non DJ) cartridges, so if you're getting distortion, it might be worth checking the tracking ability of your cartridge.
Tracking ability should be at least 60, preferably 70μm

 

I should add that the 'grey grooves' are not really very shiny, they're just a kind of milky grey when held in a certain light

 

Third post re: record wear, and what's common to all is anecdotal information and an attempt at a visual representation. You end up getting the same information and roughly the same responses. How about doing something different?

Upload some audio samples. Obviously, sample what you think is worn grooves, but also sample some you think are not worn, or not showing the problem. Inner and outer tracks. Not a whole lot, and the samples don't need to be very long, but something that represents the problem and the absence of it.

Personally, I've heard the effects of record wear since the beginning of time. Playing records is destructive. It's just a question of degree, which relates to number of plays, along with stylus force, quality, and alignment geometry. To a much lesser extent, anti-skating (MUCH less), and total mass. Then there's the big one: the vinyl itself. Some of this stuff is much softer than other types, and wears really quickly. I have no specific data other than recalling how when wear artifacts become audible after only a few plays, it was confined to a particular record and not universal. But record wear is a fact of life with vinyl, it happens with every play, just a question of how much. BTW, with a test record you can measure the effects after just a few plays. It makes distortion measurement difficult and confined to mid-band tones on outer grooves.

Audibility of wear artifacts also depends strongly on the music itself. Some signals display wear artifacts easily, others mask it. Inner groove piano not attacks are difficult, for example.

Post some samples we can put ears on.

Again, and in the mean time, verify force and alignment, including tangency, overhang, vertical angle, etc. Verify your antiskating is at least working. I don't know how to check for tip damage without a microscope or just replacing the stylus, but that's a possibility. One fumble, it's done.

 

That's the refraction of light because of the groove modulation. Definitely. Grease should be visible regardless of the angle.

 

Although it is present also on non-electronic records of mine. Also, when I say electronic, I mean early 80s synthpop like Depeche, Thomas Dolby, Yazoo, etc, not hardcore stuff lol.
Can you confirm that when held in a certain light, your grooves look a bit similar to scratches or groove wear?

 

Thanks for the reply, but I think, through sheer harsh lessons, that I have a good ear for distortion (also I normally listen through headphones), and most of these records seem to play fine. I also don't have Audacity or any software that I could upload audio samples.

 

I know what an obviously wide, grey passage that's supposed to be there looks like; what I'm seeing on mine are what look like single grooves that are, in places, grey and scratched-looking.

 

Audacity is free. What's holding you back? Every computer made in the last 20 years has a sound card. Squirt your line out into your sound card line in, launch Audacity, and collect some examples.

If you want to take the next step forward and move closer to a solution or an answer, this is what's needed. Otherwise, this is all pretty much a typing exercise.

 

There is no USB input whatsoever on any of my gear, and I'm using a laptop...

 

Hard to tell, as far as I know, light grey grooves might qualify as "looking like groove wear". The first example of a DJ record I showed might qualify as "looking like groove wear" I suppose?
If it's a single groove, it can also be a speck of grease in a groove that has been smeared out by using a dry cloth or even worse; an uncleaned sticky roller.
If you have removed stickers from the center label, it could be the adhesive from the sticker dissolved in cleaning liquid and dried up into the groove.

I think you're probably right, others can only guess. Too many possibilities.

If your laptop has a microphone input, it can probably used as a line input, so you can connect your phono preamp output to that input.
It doesn't need to be high fidelity, as long as the distortion is clearly audible.

 

Ok, folks tell me if I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it seems to me that groove wear would be pretty consistent across all the grooves, and not be visible to the naked eye. Visible, random streaks don't seem likely to be groove wear to me. I don't know how a stylus could possibly make those streaks, since the tracking force is constant. I have played old records that have groove wear that I can hear, even though they look clean.

And inner groove distortion is not baked into the record. It's a result of the stylus not tracking the record well in the inner grooves. It shows up more on some records than others, but that's because the stylus interacts differently with different audio content and/or the way different records are cut. Even if you have a cartridge that's good and minimizing IGD, you can still get it with some records.

Just my two cents. I'm willing to be corrected and learn something.

 

yeah I was thinking the same, maybe it would be inconsistent though because some bits of the grooves are louder/more dynamic than others, and thus more challenging for the stylus? I'm also someone who has no idea when it comes to groove wear, so I don't know.

 

So let me get this straight; you hear no abnormalities and the things you see you have multiple people telling you it is just light reflecting off of the groove modulations?

What exactly is the problem here? Seems you are just paranoid (no offense it happens to all of us in this hobby at one point or another)