Just connected my Super SHL5 Plus here. Few initial notes. Cannot understand those claiming they can be bright? These are far from bright IMHO. Much more laidback in the overall sound signature than my Audio Physic, however a sound that is very easy to enjoy over time. The Supertweeter. Where is the cross over on these? If i put my ears against it or cover it there is barely no difference. I can feel it adds some airiness but it must be very high freq. Maybe my ears starts getting too old In my age (+40) i think one cannot hear above around 16k. They love power. My Supernait 1 get them going better than my LM508. Specially the bass gets more definition. However there is some magic in the LM508 mids that gets lost moving to the SS Supernait. Mids are a bit more recessed than my Audio Physics however probably more correct and forgiving on some music that tends to cause fatigue on my AP. I got them in Cherry. Love the cabinet finish. I tried them with and without the grill. Coming from a brighter speaker I for now run them without the grill on. There is a sense of everything has it's place in this speaker without conflicts and nothing gets your ears tired, still all details are there. Strange in a way but I really enjoy listening to them and they just feel natural and honest. I've never felt this with any speaker before. But it feels like music is creeping up on you. Before I've listened to details in music (too much) but now it's the song that connects with my emotions in a to me a new way. I wonder how this will end... Curious. What amps do you run with your Harbeths?
It's due to their ******** marketing and forum hype ratio which means orders far exceed the small production capability. A few years ago nobody heard of them in UK because they concentrated on the far east were buyers think more expensive = better. Then they were reasonably priced in the UK but a bit obscure. The Anniversary improvements (which are minor finish and component changes) have enabled the company to jack prices so I wouldn't call them especially good value today. Check out Chartwell BBC derived designs for a price comparison. People should be aware that they aren't the only wide baffle choice out there. Of course they benefit from the fact there are more costly and more overpriced bling brands out there. The fact that Wilson and the like cost a small fortune does not make them cheap for what they are.
Maybe a fair comparison with Harbeths pushed right into the corners and sensitivity measurements taken again would be a more fair comparison. But then again maybe not as they might sound like AN's with little image depth and a flat compressed, sound.
I mean this isn't the safe space thread for "only fans of ____" (I have not posted once in that thread, I'll respect someone's safe space) I feel criticism of all speakers should be welcome in this thread. I was being sincere that Harbeth rate their speakers like every other manufacturer does. I didn't actually really slam AN's less than satisfactory sound until Richard called me a dummy. Edit: I will share the negatives about the Harbeths I have heard (and own) if thread participants want. I've been critical about them in certain areas in other threads on this forum. The actual honest rated sensitivity is one thing I will not come down on Alan Shaw for.
Richard, your Audio Note cheerleading is tiresome and is especially unwelcome on a thread about Harbeth. Everyone reading this understands you think Audio Note is the best but that is only your opinion. Speakers are a highly personal choice. I am one of those who find your speakers—the Audio Note AN-E—to have an unacceptable incoherency in the crossover region between the woofer and tweeter. I have listened to the AN-E many times and I always have that same reaction. This evidently bothers some people more than others. For example John Atkinson at Stereophile made a similar complaint. To my ears the various Harbeth models are more coherent and more natural sounding than the AN-E. However that too is just one person’s reaction. It doesn’t mean that my opinion is right and yours is wrong, or vice-versa. All listeners need to reach their own conclusions about what sounds best to them, and the rest of us should respect their choices. Measurements of speaker sensitivity are another matter however. There are industry standards for measuring sensitivity. Audio Note’s specifications do not follow industry standards so they should not be used for comparing sensitivity specs with other brands. Sure, Harbeth could have higher numbers if it rated sensitivity based on two speakers operating rather than just one, and if the speakers were both in corners, but that’s not the industry standard. Note that I am not disputing that Audio Note speakers perform well with lower power amps. I am just saying the specs do not tell the whole story.
I own two pairs of Harbeth speakers (C7es3, p3esr) and have had both for years. I get the complaints about price, but I bought both of mine used—paid $2000 for my 30th Anniversary C7es3s (in 2014) and I think $1400 for my P3esrs in 2016. What would they sell for today? Say what you will, but these speakers do hold their value exceptionally well—something I think should be part of the price/ value consideration. To me, the vitriol about cost seems a little puzzling given how well Harbeth has maintained manufacturing and quality standards over time. I agree with others in that amps (you can check my profile to see where I landed), stands (I use Resonant Woods), and positioning all matter more than the voices on HUG would have you believe. To me, the virtues of the Harbeths are illuminated by those things that they aren't: performative, over-eager, precious, juiced. My experience is that they draw me into the music to find its nuances. After years of listening to them, they still occasionally catch me by surprise with their greatness of tone. I've been listening a lot to Emily Sprague's sad bastard masterpiece Emily Alone but I feel like I didn't really connect with the vulnerability of that record in a visceral way until I heard it on Sunday afternoon on the P3esrs. I'm sure there are better speakers out there that excel at this, but I haven't found them for a price I'd be willing to pay.
Well please enlighten the board. Give us the list of your 5 or 10 best speakers under $20,000 that beat the AN E and Harbeth models at their respective price points. I'll be happy to sell my speakers if your suggestions prove to be better. I find most posters who take shots rarely offer suggestions. So ...
Of course, it is so much a matter of personal taste. I happen to like the AN-E, a lot. But, I can totally accept that someone can prefer something completely different in sound, like a YG Carmel, for example--it is a matter of taste and priorities, and I can at least appreciate the things that speaker does well even if, on balance, I prefer the AN-E. There are not too many competitive, regularly available, speaker models (i.e., not custom-builds) that I would consider. One such speaker, which I would need to hear in a more to evaluate fully, but is certainly promising, is the Charney Audio Companion with the AER driver option--this is an amazingly coherent, dynamic and vibrant sounding system that is also easy to listen to (no harsh peaks, or exessively "dry" sound, although not as warm as the AN-E). Another possibility is the Trenner and Friedl Ra (also very lively sounding and less muddled sounding in the upper bass/lower midrange than the AN-E). I would also consider something like the Avantgarde Duo (horn system without nasal coloration, but, bass is a bit disjointed and not as well integrated as I would like; but, nothing is perfect). In terms of price heading toward the higher end of the AN-E range, I would be looking at custom-built systems.
@Larry I The AN E befins around $6k and the Trenner and Freidl Ra started at $25,000 and that was back in 2010! The upper end AN E at that show sounded better. Albeit it was over $50k and had better electronics than the RA. The RA was one of my finalists but the price is very very high. AvanteGarde is spectacularly overpriced mediocre sounding speaker line. I am horn fan and in a big room I'd get horns over ANs or Harbeths but Avantgarde Gryphon is just horrible sound for massive dollars. I got booted from Audio Shark because thebowner of the forum is a shill dealer for these lines. But the AN E and Harbeth sound like music. Avantgarde the last I auditioned them was so SO Sooooo bad playing simple music. Eva Cassidy that I had the dealer turn it off halfway through. It was that bad! I understand the custom approach at the high end but it depends who is doing the custom and how big the room is and how ugly you can stomach. Diyers always claim all sorts of things then when I hear it it usually sounds mediocre or worse. Diyers tend to have a pride of build bias. Again though, the AN E Lx Hemp is around $6k and the HL5+ is around $7,500. I prefer the E/Lx because to me it sounds significantly better and costs less and is easier to drive and has 20 finishes. So personally, I don't think it is too fair to compare these speakers to speakers in the $25k+ range. I have seen this before on a number of forums. Someone rips the wide baffles and then they suggest speakers at 5 times the price. And even then I can afford avantegarde. Thanks I'll take the E/D over the ones I've heard or the Harbeths or the Devore. And if I felt the need to spend $50k on a horn I'd get Acapella ... they kick the crap out of Avantegarde. And IMO look better to boot. The other problem with internet forums where someone claims some DIY speaker is better is that there is no way for anyone to test the claim. When you bring up actual speakers like YG Acoustics, or Trenner and Freidle the average person can probably audition them to compare. The one off speaker no one can hear is a waste of time bringing into these conversations. I auditioned one at $50,000 that sounded tremendous. Had top shindo and analog domain amps that would run another $550,000. Big horns like this have a massive dynamics advantage over a boxed speaker. The question becomes whether one wants state of the art macrodynamics and breadth and treble extension at the expense of a more balanced sounding cohesive loudspeaker. I get people wanting the SOTA sound in 2 or 3 areas over a balanced speaker that isn't SOTA in any area. But SOTA doesn't exist under $10k. This is why there is a struggle out there to beat speakers like the Harbeths and ANs because they sound mostly "right" all across the musoc genre spectrum. I would add Pure Audio Project and a few other value all day listenable speakers to the list. As well as Sound Kaos which offer a helluva value proposition in a small cabinet with formidable bass depth. I lool at sound for the dollar. The upper end AN speakers are there for people like me who love the house platform sound and want that sound turbocharged. So the value per dollar is far less to the peanut gallery than die hard fans. My AN E speaker currently runs $29,990 US There are plenty of speakers in this price range. But I can't think of one that would really get me to move off them in a medium sized listening room or smaller. A large room is another matter.
You mentioned around $20k, so that is the range I was thinking about. The top end AN-Es are good, but, as you noted, the bottom end AN-E is killer good for the money and I can't think of many speakers to put up against them. I like Harbeth speakers too, but, they are considerably harder to match with low-powered amps than the Audio Note line. For modern horns, the Acapella IS an interesting company, but, they would be more to my liking if they were a bit more efficient because the most powerful amp I own is an Audio Note Kageki (6.5 watt/channel). If you ever get the opportunity, you should listen to the Charney Audio speakers. The model with the Lowther driver is priced around $6,500. The model I really like (with the AER driver) is around $13,000. These are truly amazing sounding systems that DO NOT (fortunately), sound like most full range systems--they don't have a prominent midrange peak, nasal colorations or raspiness that I normally associate with Lowther and other full range drivers. For bargain speakers that sound good and are high efficiency, I think that the Rethm Bhaava is another speaker worth looking into (full range driver supplemented by built-in active subwoofer--$3,000 per pair).
Well it goes to show you that pretty.much everything is a choice of compromises. Acapella isn't particulary sensitive which is a drawback for those looking for 110dB horns. One problem with esoteric brands regardless of initial impressions is the ability to resell them. I bought the AN J/Spe in 2003 and sold them 13 years later for $400 more than I paid and that was a rush sale and in the highly unpopular black finish. My KEF LS 50 was a pain in the ass to sell. No one in HK particlarly likes stuff that is made in China i got about 1/3 what I paid for them. My AXTwo I have had for 6 years and have been offered more than I paid...nearly 40% more! This may not matter to folks spening $50k on amps but it matters. Harbeth amd AN are just safer buys. If you want to sell them people will get in line. I have never even heard of Charney Audio. Do they have US, Canadian or Hong Kong distribution? If I don't like them and need to sell em, will there be a line up for em? will I get close to what I paid for them? Will they be around in 10 years to service them if they break? There are other things to consider with these companies. Don't get me wrong, I am willing to take risks like the KingKo and even Line Magnetic as I was the first reviewer in North America covering them and they had more risk back then. The Teresonic Ingenium has been the best single driver speaker I have heard. It's unfortunate that Mike passed away and the company is closing down.
None of this quasi-truth applies in Canada, so it’s probably best for you to stop making sweeping statements in a manner the suggests you believe they apply everywhere. The AN-E-LX Hemp in a wood finish is a CA$9,000 pair of speakers in Toronto. The Harbeth Super SHL5+ is a CA$6,500 pair of speakers in Toronto. To get the best out of the AN-E-LX Hemp, strict placement rules (corners are best, flat against back wall sometimes works) must be followed or the speakers sound literally terrible. The Super SHL5+ are vastly easier to position in a far greater variety of listening rooms. Move AN-E speakers out into conventional placement positions and they sound terrible. Move Super SHL5+ speakers into a corner and they still sound acceptably good. The AN-E design is esoteric to a fault, unfortunately. Most important of all to me personally, the Harbeth Super SHL5+ sounds notably better than any AN-E including the AN-E-LX Hemp. Toronto Home of Audiophile is an authorized AN dealer, so I’ve had a chance to do extended auditions of a variety of AN speakers. Very handy, that. Francis Chung, the shop owner, is well known in Toronto and a terrific merchant - a dedicated audio man. If Qvortrup could design a decent crossover to eliminate the transition issues that so many other speaker designers get right, I’d be happy to give the AN-E-LX another audition. If Qvortrup could design an AN-E of any kind that didn’t depend so heavily on room nodes and specific placement demands, I’d be happy to give the AN-E-LX another audition. Until then, the AN-E speakers will remain nothing more than expensive curiosities that I revisit once a year in order to see if anything has improved. So far, not. Express your opinions @Richard Austen but never make the mistake of assuming that just because you relentlessly promote Audio Note UK and Qvortrup (and all the IP he blithely took from Kondo) that somehow the rest of us are impressed by AN UK. Many of us are not impressed with AN UK and some of us personally also have little respect for Qvortrup. IMO and to my ears, AN speakers struggle to compete against some speakers that are listed at lower prices than AN.
It’s all a matter of taste but yes sometimes it’s hard to figure out how they price point audio gear... Just reading about the placement of these speakers made me wonder for which niche market they are built for.
Stereophile covered the Super HL5+ in the February 2019 issue. The list price is $7995USD which means it should be over $10,000 in Canada. That's where my number comes from. Please have your Harbeth dealer post online that the price is actually $6500 Canadian or $5k US. I am sure a great many Americans would like to know this! It's not a long drive to Canada to save $2995USD! My commentary on loudspeakers and products are cited after multiple auditions with different gear in different locations. I am not going to be goaded into getting into an AN versus Harbeth debate. I like Harbeth and they were a runner up for me in the past and present. The AN E/Lx I reviewed carried a $5800 price tag. It is likely in the $6500USD ballpark now. My comparison of Harbeth and AN has been less about the sound and more about tertiary considerations. Sensitivity, positioning, options, resale vale, weight, WAF, etc. If one loves Harbeth or Audio Note and hates the other one then the other one has been set up poorly. The biggest AN dealer in the world has no usable corners. Corners while desirable are not required. As for PQ / Kondo. Well the marriage broke up and the courts sided with PQ. The courts saw the financial information and which engineers designed which products. I know this is tough for some to understand but if a software engineer at Apple designs a cool AP it is Apple's Ap, not the software engineer's AP. The partner who puts up ALL the money and takes 100% of all the risk owns the company.
I’ve heard two different pairs of AN-J and AN-E speakers that sounded fine in their respective rooms. The owners had the run of their dedicated listening rooms and made the very best of things. Both rooms were comfortable and well-appointed, relaxing spaces full of books, art and some carefully chosen furniture. I’m still not impressed with AN UK’s crossovers - they intrude in a way that I don’t like. They’re less sophisticated than the rest of the speaker (drivers and cabinet design) and together with the placement limitations let the speaker down unless you can accommodate the placement. If I was going to choose a speaker that was designed specifically for placement against walls or in corners, I’d consider one of the newer Larsen models. I heard the Larsen 6 and the 8 at the Toronto Audio Show in October 2018. It was an impressive debut in Canada - superb speakers designed for against-the-wall placement. I hear the new Larsen 9 more recently and was even more impressed. The Larsen 8 could give the Harbeth Super SHL5+ a run for its money, no doubt. But when two different speakers are so good, it really doesn’t matter which one wins because there’s no bad choice. Personally, I can’t generally say that about the AN-E unfortunately.
hype can only get you so far- at some point you have to deliver the goods to sustain business. let's see how Buchardt speakers are doing in 5, 10, 20 years (for example). Harbeth's deliver like no other speaker I have heard.
They are around the $6,50o CAD price range. You cannot just used a rate conversion rate to determine the Canadian price. You are welcome to grab a pair up here but be aware that sale taxes are around 15% and that US import duty are also not included in the list price once your crossover the border back to the US.
Personally his loyalty and passion for AN speakers is welcomed by me. We are all passionate about audio and what we like and as long as we're being civil and respectful- let it fly!
The actual review of the 5's was in may, 2015 and it was quite puzzling. They used 25 watt Shindo monobocks and a 45 WPC Croft Phono integrated to drive them and wondered why they didn't sound as big as his Altec Valencias.
What on Earth are you talking about? Canada is not part of the U.S., at least it wasn’t the last time I checked. Your assumption that a Canadian product price is automatically a dollar conversion of a U.S. price is mistaken. Harbeth is distributed directly in Canada, The Canadian distributor makes his own deals. The internet is your friend, if you know how to use it. Planet of Sound lists all of its Harbeth prices online. It has a busy shop in Toronto and its original shop in Ottawa. Look here: Harbeth – Planet of Sound Of course. Your listening, your hearing, your opinions only. You insert your relentless AN and Qvortrup promotions into the majority of threads in which you post. We’re not stupid - we notice. That makes you the one who is implicitly goading some other members into expressing their own opinions in opposition to yours. Learn to enjoy the taste of your own ‘medicine’. I’ve got news for you. Most of your so-called “tertiary concerns” (which you never described as such before now) are primary and secondary concerns for most couples. Where WAF is a factor, it is almost always a primary factor. Fatuous nonsense. Kondo walked away from the stress of what would have been an expensive and protracted court battle and you know it. In my opinion, Qvortrup got away with unethical and illegal behaviour. The only thing that is tough to understand is why you persist, even in this exchange, in relentlessly promoting AN and Qvortrup. It’s suspicious. The title of the thread is “Harbeth Speakers - Doing Something Right...” but you want to heedlessly inject AN.
