Having solved IGD, could I possibly have OGD?

This seems a little ridiculous, but having suffered with sibilance and IGD on my Elys and solving the problem by moving to an AT VM95ML, it now seems that tracks closer to the label sound better than the outside tracks. Early tracks on the side seem to sound thinner in bass and splashier on cymbals. Everything sounds more balanced as we move toward inner grooves.

I guess I'll just try to check the alignment again for starters, but any other suggestions? The anti-skate setting didn't seem to affect sonics in an obvious way (Rega P3). I'm thinking I might see if I can align to Baerwald rather than Stevenson while I'm at it, but I'd be surprised if that makes a huge difference. My phono stage is my integrated amp (Copland CSA28) and while I can't find a spec, the schematic seemed to suggest 100pF to my admittedly less-than-trained eye.

 

Definitely check your alignment. What you are describing shouldn't be happening. Either something is off, your mind is playing tricks on you, or the record has damage/pressing defects.

Can you confirm the AS actually works? I've seen a few issues with Rega anti-skate, depending on the model.

 

The Elys is a shallower cartridge than the ATVM95ML.
Did you adjust the arm pillar upwards to compensate?

 

Possibly VTA? (vertical tracking angle). Had a similar issue with my Ortofon 2M Red, simply placed a thicker cork slip matt underneath my felt one and has improved the distortion I was receiving with the midrange.

 

I could never get the Elys to sound right on my P3-2000. IGD and just "thin" sounding. Amazingly it sounds wonderful on my ancient Pionner PL 112D - warm and no trace of IGD - go figure.

 

Realize that many times what people conclude IGD it is many times cartridge / TT setup or alignment related, or a tonearm / platform that is just not up to the task quality-wise.

Oh, and that includes ellipticals - ellipticals *can* accentuate IGD with poor setup more than other profiles, but good ellipticals can also be 99% IGD free on a good platform. One topic where forums / internet has created a lot of misdirection and myth.

OP - I bet it is setup / alignment related... the P3 should be theoretically up to the task, and with an ML realize that dead nuts alignment (especially azimuth) become more critical than other more forgiving profiles.

 

That's the big problem with aligning a cartridge.

You set the outer point correctly then move to the inner point.

In setting up in inner point correctly it un-aligns the outer point. Then you move back to the outer point.

You set the outer point correctly then move to the inner point.

In setting up in inner point correctly it un-aligns the outer point. Then you move back to the outer point.

You set the outer point correctly then move to the inner point.

In setting up in inner point correctly it un-aligns the outer point. Then you move back to the outer point.

And so on.

I've never read a description of how to adjust the alignment of one of the points without disturbing the other one you just set.

Maybe someone can provide a description of how to do this.

 

LOL.... yep.

Sometimes (actually most) it's better just to learn the manufacturer's recommended stylus overhang (from the back of the headshell), and if there is any skew angle, and do it the easy way.

The engineers who built the table many times even pick an alignment method (like Stevenson) when they publish the overhang - heck, in many cases they give you a little plastic tool you can use if you want.

But there's big business in alignment tools - and from my experience many times they create more problems than address.

What's most interesting - is that folks who use alignment tools get OCD about measuring / aligning to the .0001 millimeter -- when the difference between something like a Baerwald and Stevenson alignment can be like 2mm difference in stylus overhang for that particular arm. !!!2mm!!! Next time you're worrying about the little speck of distance, keep that in mind.

Sometimes simpler is better.

 

Not OP but I had the Elys mounted on the Rega RB 300 arm using the Rega 3 point mounting system thinking that Rega knows best how to mount their own cartridges result = IGD and thin sounding. Then I tried it on the Pioneer pl 112D using 49 mm measured from the back of the head shell gasket to the stylus as correct for the Pioneer 112D and sounded wonderful. To be honest I never tried a different alignment for the Elys on the Rega as It'll be staying on the Pioneer table.

 

Thanks for sharing. I wish more would chime in from this perspective.... lord knows we get the commensurate representation of expensive alignment tools on forums (surprise). Then again, those that do things the simple way sometimes aren't the type that live on forums........

Simpler is better. I bet you used the simple plastic 49mm tool Pioneer shipped with their table? If not, they sell others. But there are many ways to do it, including drawing lines on paper!

BTW, I own a Pioneer PL-70Lii turntable -- everything I think one of my other tables is better (like my 1200G, or GT-2000L) the Pioneer floors me again. It's 49mm too -- like most Pioneers. Gotta love Pioneer feeding "simple"!!!!!

 

I use a Technics and a Denon overhang gauge. The Denon was included with the DL-160 cartridge and is for the DP-47f turntable.

Both work 100% successfully for me.

My mirror gauge is never used anymore - could never make it work.

 

After periodically exchanging with you and crossing paths over the last three years, none of this surprises me!

Funny, I just expressed my displeasure / doubts with the mirror gauge on another thread recently... I think he's reading here.

I mean.... azimuth being one thing that has to be dead nuts, especially with line contacts, can you get it with a mirror? LOL (if you answer and justify, you probably won't convince me.... and I've tried many methods).

 

OCD probably not OGD.

 

On most tables with typical records, the outer grooves are either sloped, suffer greater warps which can increase the average height of the groove surface, and are often the least damped on tables with label clamping systems. These can negatively affect the sound by an incorrect azimuth, VTA and resonance amplitudes that improves as the record plays.

Despite these problems, the high groove velocity should prevent the classic IGD symptoms of distortion, sibilance and HF loss.

 

Gorgeous tables! Congratulations. Your turntables play at a higher level arena from my Rega P3, Lenco L75, Pioneer PL 112D tables but I bet we both get immense pleasure from the hobby nonetheless. I don't have the plastic alignment tool for the Pioneer, I just simply very carefully measured 49mm with a ruler on a white sheet of paper to be able to see clearly with my 70 year old eyes.

 

I have one table with a 3009-ish arm and I used the Feickert tool to align to Baerwald. The stylus aligns perfectly at both places and is slightly angled in the head shell.

My other table is a Pioneer PL530. It won’t align at both places to save my life. There’s always about a 2mm difference in overhang between the two points. It has to be because the plumb line of the arm pivot is a hair off compared to the platter plumb line, IOW, it’s pivoting ever so slightly elliptically instead of perfectly circular. By design? Who knows? It’s a non-adjustable arm, but has played entire albums perfectly with a Shibata-style tip using the plastic Pioneer overhang gauge and aligned parallel to the head shell. Go figure.

 

I quoted this part as it is all that matters in the end!

 

Alignment at two points involves shortening or lengthening the tonearm pivot to stylus tip distance by moving the cartridge towards/away from the tonearm pivot in the headshell and rotating the cartridge about a vertical axis in the headshell until you have equal alignment at BOTH points (i.e. zero yaw angle between the cantilever and the alignment mark).

 

Arc protractor avoids a lot of back and forth.

 

Buy a CD player or streamer.
Problem solved.

 

Yes - as long as you know the exact final pivot to stylus tip distance, so you can print out the correct arc protractor for that length. The MoFi alignment disc potrazeebie is excellent for that, as long at you have a clear view of the pivot that facilitates horizontal movement (i.e. the pivot that is vertically oriented). Then you can move lengthen/shorten the stylus tip to horizontal pivot length until the stylus tip hits the alignment point and change the cartridge's yaw until it aligns with the grid at one point only, rather than iteratively align between 2 alignment points until both are zero.

 

Thanks so much, everybody. The points about VTA and azimuth are well-made and well-received. I originally got a spacer for the arm but having read somewhere (here?) that the AT cartridge is slightly warmer with arm tail-down I never installed it. I may indeed do that now and see what it does. Rega being Rega nothing is easy to adjust but I'll see what the azimuth looks like too. It looks "fine" with my eye but I'm guessing that doesn't really cut it...

By way of background, I've been a digital guy all my life and as such had staunchly resisted vinyl, but during lockdown I decided I should see what all the fuss is about. In reality, I'm enjoying albums this way, being more or less forced to listen to the full thing without hitting next track constantly has been great. Sonically, well let's just say that while some aspects have been enjoyable I'm not yet fully convinced. However, I genuinely believe that what I have is capable of better performance than I am currently enjoying, and I'm not ready to give up yet. I also keep buying records so I can't admit defeat.

I'm not back at work until tomorrow so I'll have a look at installing that spacer and resetting the alignment at least. Here's one more silly question before I go: how tight should the screws on the cartridge be? I'm often guilty of overtightening "things" so I don't want to wreck everything here, but maybe I haven't tightened them enough?

Again, thank you. This is a great forum for info and help, much appreciated.

 

Take care with anything beyond firm when tightening screws - cartridge body distortion may result.

 

I finally got a chance to tinker this morning. For a first port of call I decided to simply realign as I didn't have the time or inclination to start adding tonearm spacers. Probably fair to say I took more care over it this time, and I think I'm much closer to a good alignment now. I realised that last time I wasn't being being fully precise and "close enough" doesn't really cut it here. Certainly without any changes today it wasn't *really* following the arc, so I tried to improve that. I'm still convinced a steadier hand and better equipment (eyes for starters!) could do a better job, but here we are.

I'm listening now and first impressions are that the bass I was missing seems to have returned a little, and the overall balance is better. It's still not exactly a "warm" cartridge, but we knew this already. Everything just seems a bit more integrated now, so we'll see how we get on over the coming days.

Regarding anti-skate, I've basically had to max it out on the Rega. Using the deadwax method, even with the AS up full it still moves pretty damn quickly to the centre. Backing of the AS to 1g had it onto the centre label before I knew what was going on, so that seems a bit strange.

I'll leave it a few weeks now before I consider tinkering further. I'm still not sure whether to bother with that spacer. Looking at the diamond tip through a loupe, if anything it looks like the tail could be even further down.

 

Actually, buy an audiophile system setup record. I believe you can check sibilence on the inner grooves. That way you are not setting a cartridge up with a defective or off pressing.